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If we're going to keep on using "misogynistic" as a synonym for "sexist", we're going to need a new word that means "hatred of women". Can I get some examples

by nsxwolf 12y ago

If we're going to keep on using "misogynistic" as a synonym for "sexist", we're going to need a new word that means "hatred of women". Can I get some examples of truly misogynistic video games? I can't think of any except for "Custer's Revenge" on the Atari 2600. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge

j2kun 12y ago
I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.
  - j2kun 12y ago
    I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Did you watch the Sarkeesian videos? It would be hard for any of us to make the initial case for AAA gaming misogyny better than she does. Her argument isn't dispositive, but why waste time with an inferior substitute to her own words?
        xtrumanx 12y ago
        I haven't watched her videos. I tried watching the first one when it came out and got bored. I did however end up watching one the critiques of her videos. If you haven't, I'd say you may doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch some of them before recommending anymore of her videos to others. There was a scene in Hitman which she grossly misrepresented to fit a narrative of misogyny in videogames which I found shocking.
        tptacek 12y ago
        We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. The gross misrepresentation is Sarkeesian's belief that the game encourages players to do that, refuted by the fact that a number at the top left of the screen in fact decreases when you do. That's the disclaimer you want me to accompany my recommendation with?
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. That a work depicts a world in which it is possible to commit violence against women is a pretty weak argument for the work being mysogynistic, especially when that particular example of violence is not one which the game rewards, while the game does center around, and reward, murdering all kinds of other people.
        tptacek 12y ago
        You're litigating a different issue than the grandparent comment is. In the video I watched, Sarkeesian was very clear about the motives she perceived in including this kind of violence in games. She believes that it is in fact an attempt to create atmosphere and realism. She goes on to interrogate whether that attempt is effective given its knock-on effects and subtext. The grandparent commenter, on the other hand, tries to claim that Sarkeesian's videos might be dishonest. I don't buy it, based on the critiques I could find. Did you watch the videos? What do you think?
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  What would you describe as a "needless depiction of violence"? Realistically, the only way for video games to avoid "needless content" is if they're linear, scripted and on-rails experiences. In this case, you would have an interactive film. There's certainly room for such games, and there are already plenty of them. But to focus more on that is to miss the entire point of having video games in the first place.
iLoch 12y ago
How about a game where you rape women? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  That's pretty far from mainstream.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
    That's pretty far from where you originally placed your goalposts.
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  But want to add, not picking on you. Thank you for the example. I think we can agree misogynistic games do exist.
tptacek 12y ago
First, the word "misogyny" doesn't simply mean "hatred of women". You can't simply take the greek roots of a word and shuck off the context it's acquired over millennia of use. Second, to objectify a person is to rob them of part of their humanity, or sometimes even of their agency. It's a casually contemptuous way to treat people. Only on a nerd message board is the connection to the concept of misogyny hard to follow.
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  So then we're left with a word that is too abstract to be useful. If you tell me "this game is misogynistic", I have no idea what to expect. A serial killer that targets prostitutes is a misogynist. So is a college kid that says "Kate Upton is hot".
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Since this comment isn't coherent, I'll just address it by sentence: 1. No. 2. Ok, and? 3. Yes. 4. Nobody made that argument. Worth noting: with that last sentence, you transitioned from someone arguing about semantics to someone arguing that we are too confined by the concept of misogyny; you allowed your agenda to seep through. Unsubtly.
    - nsxwolf 12y ago
      4. Pretty sure people have made the argument that objectification is misogyny (you did so yourself), and that calling a woman "hot" is very arguably an example of objectification.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        If you want to have that argument, I'm sure you can find someone to have it with.
MartinCron 12y ago
Some people advocate using the term "Gynophobic" for a term for the hatred and disdain of women as the use of the term "Misogyny" has evolved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynophobia

by nsxwolf 12y ago

j2kun 12y ago

I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?

nsxwolf 12y ago
Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.
- j2kun 12y ago
  I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Did you watch the Sarkeesian videos? It would be hard for any of us to make the initial case for AAA gaming misogyny better than she does. Her argument isn't dispositive, but why waste time with an inferior substitute to her own words?
      - xtrumanx 12y ago
        I haven't watched her videos. I tried watching the first one when it came out and got bored. I did however end up watching one the critiques of her videos. If you haven't, I'd say you may doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch some of them before recommending anymore of her videos to others. There was a scene in Hitman which she grossly misrepresented to fit a narrative of misogyny in videogames which I found shocking.
        tptacek 12y ago
        We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. The gross misrepresentation is Sarkeesian's belief that the game encourages players to do that, refuted by the fact that a number at the top left of the screen in fact decreases when you do. That's the disclaimer you want me to accompany my recommendation with?
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. That a work depicts a world in which it is possible to commit violence against women is a pretty weak argument for the work being mysogynistic, especially when that particular example of violence is not one which the game rewards, while the game does center around, and reward, murdering all kinds of other people.
        tptacek 12y ago
        You're litigating a different issue than the grandparent comment is. In the video I watched, Sarkeesian was very clear about the motives she perceived in including this kind of violence in games. She believes that it is in fact an attempt to create atmosphere and realism. She goes on to interrogate whether that attempt is effective given its knock-on effects and subtext. The grandparent commenter, on the other hand, tries to claim that Sarkeesian's videos might be dishonest. I don't buy it, based on the critiques I could find. Did you watch the videos? What do you think?
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
What would you describe as a "needless depiction of violence"? Realistically, the only way for video games to avoid "needless content" is if they're linear, scripted and on-rails experiences. In this case, you would have an interactive film. There's certainly room for such games, and there are already plenty of them. But to focus more on that is to miss the entire point of having video games in the first place.

iLoch 12y ago

How about a game where you rape women? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nsxwolf 12y ago
That's pretty far from mainstream.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  That's pretty far from where you originally placed your goalposts.
nsxwolf 12y ago
But want to add, not picking on you. Thank you for the example. I think we can agree misogynistic games do exist.

tptacek 12y ago

First, the word "misogyny" doesn't simply mean "hatred of women". You can't simply take the greek roots of a word and shuck off the context it's acquired over millennia of use. Second, to objectify a person is to rob them of part of their humanity, or sometimes even of their agency. It's a casually contemptuous way to treat people. Only on a nerd message board is the connection to the concept of misogyny hard to follow.

nsxwolf 12y ago
So then we're left with a word that is too abstract to be useful. If you tell me "this game is misogynistic", I have no idea what to expect. A serial killer that targets prostitutes is a misogynist. So is a college kid that says "Kate Upton is hot".
- tptacek 12y ago
  Since this comment isn't coherent, I'll just address it by sentence: 1. No. 2. Ok, and? 3. Yes. 4. Nobody made that argument. Worth noting: with that last sentence, you transitioned from someone arguing about semantics to someone arguing that we are too confined by the concept of misogyny; you allowed your agenda to seep through. Unsubtly.
  - nsxwolf 12y ago
    4. Pretty sure people have made the argument that objectification is misogyny (you did so yourself), and that calling a woman "hot" is very arguably an example of objectification.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      If you want to have that argument, I'm sure you can find someone to have it with.

MartinCron 12y ago

Some people advocate using the term "Gynophobic" for a term for the hatred and disdain of women as the use of the term "Misogyny" has evolved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynophobia