9 ms·

Death to the Gamer

27 points by minikites 12y ago

j2kun 12y ago
> Like all geek culture, [video game] culture is little more than the consumption of media as a means of identity formation. Already in the first paragraph I'm not so sure about the premise of this article... I don't connect with people who play video games just because they play video games, but because of a shared experience, language, and shared understanding that comes about from playing specific video games. Part of that involves the creation of ideas external to the immediate content of the video game itself, and it's often something that the creators of the game did not at all intend to be a central identifying feature. The cultural connections with someone are stronger with immediate shared experiences, which makes them decidedly personal. I can provide plenty of examples of this phenomenon. But even if you want to play devil's advocate and agree with the claim, it must necessarily extend to almost all "culture," be it art, news, food, music, movies. The vast majority of people in any culture are consumers of the fruits of that culture. This article makes it seem like an inherently bad thing, or a reason to belittle the culture. But the logical conclusion of the idea is ludicrous, because culture is an unambiguously good feature of human society. This isn't to defend misogynistic gamers (who I sincerely hope are an increasingly small fraction of gamers that just happen to be extremely vocal on the internet), but just to disagree with the unreasonable train of logic used in the article.
- fmdud 12y ago
  >This isn't to defend misogynistic gamers (who I sincerely hope are an increasingly small fraction of gamers that just happen to be extremely vocal on the internet. It's in the industry, too. It's not just a vocal minority.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    That's true, although I think industry is getting better on the dev side (not as much on the corporate side), and at a faster rate than the consumer side of the culture. Developer events like GDC are worried about harassment and actively try to stop it, and a lot of developers in the current kerfuffle have actively distanced themselves from their less savory fans, e.g.: https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-community-df4511032e8a https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-...
- dinglefuk 12y ago
  I think by "gamer" the article means people whose identities are largely defined by video games. I disagree that gamers are necessarily misogynistic or even passively violent. I do agree that most gamers, as defined above, are highly consumeristic and intellectually deficient.
- spindritf 12y ago
  it must necessarily extend to almost all "culture," be it art, news, food, music, movies It does extend to a large swath of culture that has become nothing more than means for signalling. Maybe it has always been like that and art is simply more accessible now so more people engage in this affiliation by taste.
- jrochkind1 12y ago
  I think you maybe have some points, about the fact that video games aren't simply passive consumption, but involve active creation on the part of the 'consumer', in several ways. But. But. I want to draw attention to your assumption that all forms of culture are about 'consumption' -- there used to be forms of culture that did not involve money exchanging hands, and that were about shared creation, not about a presenter and an audience. Say, people getting together to play music and sing songs themselves. The fact that many of us can't anymore barely even conceive of 'culture' except as a purchased commodity is telling. It may be true that in 21st century U.S, "the vast majority of people in any culture are consumers of the fruits of that culture," but it is simply not true that ALL culture MUST be that way. One can critisize that mode of culture without thinking 'culture' is a bad thing.
  - Arzh 12y ago
    Consumption doesn't mean that they pay for it with money. You can easily consume mario cart with out ever owning the game or paying money into it. Yes someone bought it, but even those musicians had to get there instruments from somewhere.
    - jrochkind1 12y ago
      It's true that it's not black and white, there are matters of degree, grey areas, and different aspects of consumption/participation. I think the basic point still stands though, that 'culture' has largely become something where it's assumed a minority produces and a majority consumes -- but this is not in fact an intrinsic aspect of culture, and it's perhaps only in the past 100 years that 'consumption' has become the dominant mode of culture at all. I also think you can make an argument that in some cases ad ways video games are a place where this mode of culture is actually challenged _more_ than currently typical (let's talk about minecraft).
  - j2kun 12y ago
    Of course you're right. But especially these days even getting together and playing music and singing songs is full of "consumption" in the sense that you relate what you're doing to what you have consumed in the past. "Oh that riff sounds like Coldplay" or "What if we tried this vocal thing like Adele does in this song?" These kinds of influences are often unconscious. Even trying to avoid similarity to existing culture is tied up in the consumption of that culture, as has been the case with every revolution in art since the Renaissance. I would love to hear more examples of culture that you would claim aren't tied up with consumption. The only examples I can think of are cultures that emerge from things like suffrage and oppression.
- everyone 12y ago
  The following is a bit rambling btw! I make games for a living and love the art form. I regard games as trivial and a waste of time/resources however I just happen to be genuinely passionate about them and can actually manage to eke out a living making them (Unlike with music, my other passion) Anyway I have always found references to a 'gamer culture' or other such 'cultures' to be .. nonsensical? Or, like these 'fandoms', like the my little pony fandom etc. I think these kind of fandom people will imagine some kind of 'culture' around anything and its usually really bad quality stuff, eg terrible anime, terrible derivative multiplayer games, really bad juvenile comics, crappy collectible card games etc. Basically societies slightly less mainstream cultural crap. I have no idea why this seems to be the case. As far as I'm concerned I have always just really liked playing games, I consider myself somewhat of a connoisseur of the art form (As I would for most other media, music, film,comics,cartoons,) that does not make me a member of any particlar culture or sect imo. I also like to watch films but I dont consider myseld a 'filmer'
- Justsignedup 12y ago
  Look, the culture exists, maybe not for you. The true test is: If a criticism of your favorite video game makes you angry, you have a problem. Hell criticize any game I play, any operating system I use, any hardware I use, its all good. But this is not true for all people. Also the article rings very well with abuses seen in the video game industry. Why is it that working at a wall street firm making 200-300k a year while working ~ 10-12 hr shifts is seen as horrible, exploitative work, while working for a video game firm making 100-150k a year while working 12-14 hr shifts is seen as glorious work making stuff you love? Hell, I can work at a "normal" development job (I do) working 8 hrs a day, and have the rest of my day dedicated to enjoying myself (which can include playing games, making games, making hardware, hacking hardware, human interaction, family life, you pick it).
  - j2kun 12y ago
    What? I think you misread my comment. The article's central argument is, "Even if all gamers were tolerant and accepting, gamer culture is still inherently worthless because it's based on consumption." I take issue with this thesis on multiple levels, and your reply is addressing something entirely different.
- laughingbovine 12y ago
  You're right to say that this critique of culture should, logically, apply to all, but the writer goes back on his premise a few paragraphs in and instead says this: > Gamer identity is tainted, root and branch, by its embrace of consumption as a way of life.
hippiehippo 12y ago
Is it me, or does it seem that there's an inflation of "death to the gamer" articles in the last couple of weeks? "Gamers are over" - Gamasutra "The death of the 'gamers'" - Ars Technica "Death of an identity" - Kotaku "killing the gamer identity" - Vice and so on
- elarkin 12y ago
  You aren't wrong. David Auerbach at Slate has written a small piece on it: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gamergate_explodes_gaming_journalists_declare_the_gamers_are_over_but_they.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gam...
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    This is like people that stopped smoking and are now telling others they suck because they still smoke.
- vlunkr 12y ago
  I've noticed this as well. What an oddly specific trend.
  - MrDom 12y ago
    It's not odd. #GamerGate is the gaming community speaking out against what they perceive as corruption in gaming and games journalism. Game journalists are firing back. Everything else is a sideshow intended to distract from that.
- sosuke 12y ago
  I feel like it has been for the past year, it is exhausting. I think there is a real term for it but at first I was in shock, and now I'm tired of hearing it, being lumped in the same category with folks doing some nasty evil stuff. I just want to play with my trains, shoot friends in CoD and explore wild fantasy worlds. I don't support the harassment or abuse of any person, I feel sorry for these people who are under attack. I don't have an answer on how to stop it, or improve the landscape. Is it even possible to stop some people from being vile? How do you say 'No, you can't think those things, you can't talk like that.' and have an impact on someone who feels completely secure and self-righteous from their position? I don't want to feel guilt for being a man who likes video games.
thisjepisje 12y ago
The lowercase t is too small.
nixpulvis 12y ago
I play a decent bit of video games, and used to play a LOT more, by some standards I might be called a gamer still. I've defiantly seen some of what you mention, however, I've also seen some of the best communities of people. I play WoW, and the guild I play with has a relatively good mix of nationality and gender, and I've never once heard someone berate or look down upon our female players. I think as with most things, there is a spectrum.
- anvildoc 12y ago
  I agree. This article seems to be aimed at frat houses playing GTA. In fact, I betcha you could replace the word "gamers" in this article with anything and it would still work. In my gaming experiences, fellow gamers (even hyper competitive ones) are for the most part intelligent, inclusive, nice people. If anything, this article is a gross over-generalization of a population.
  - numo16 12y ago
    It attitude of the gaming community changes based on which game's community you are focusing on. The communities that usually fit the negative connotations often mentioned, in my mind, are League of Legends and CoD (most FPS games, especially on consoles, for that matter), which seem to be filled with people who are vitriolic assholes for the sake of being assholes. However, this is just my experience with these communities in the past and may be different for others. I know a fair majority of gamers aren't your GTA/CoD dudebros and screaming 12 year olds, but I feel that many people outside of gaming culture see it as such, which seems to be the biggest problem with "gamer" culture.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
  "I've never once heard someone berate or look down upon our female players." Were you actually paying attention?
nerdy 12y ago
Does this article strike anyone else as being a bit pedantic?
tptacek 12y ago
I don't get it. Is literature tainted, root and branch, because for much of the last 150 years it too was driven by consumption? Should we avoid Dickens, because he published in for-profit serials that carried advertising?
- jtbigwoo 12y ago
  There's a difference between the culture of literature and the culture of gaming. I think it boils down to the difference between reviews and criticism. Games, for the most part, get reviewed. Reviews are functional and focused on consumption. A review seeks to answer a few questions about its subject: Does it work as intended? Is it entertaining? Is it a good value? Books, on the other hand, sometimes are subject to criticism. Criticism explores, interprets, and analyzes. It asks "why" and "how" questions. The best criticism expands and changes its subject. Literature as a culture has its roots in both original work and criticism. Almost as soon as there were works to read, there was literary criticism. (The Talmud springs to mind as an early example.) Certainly, most readers and many critics are more interested in reviews than criticism, but the feedback from criticism has been fundamental to the development of literature. This balance makes literary culture much different from gamer culture. Even with games aspire to be art, the reviews go like this: The game explores themes of identity and abandonment. Who are we and how are we separate from each other? It might be art. The controls are a bit laggy and the game is only two hours long, which isn't great value for $10. I give it an 8 out of 10. I've read a few game reviews that go farther but these are few and far between. Maybe the recent controversies will start us down a new path. EDIT: I wish HN had a preview button.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    The big disagreement I have with your argument is this: sure, games for the most part get reviewed -- the same is true of literature. There is criticism, as opposed to review, of both games and books, but most readers, like most gamers, are interested in consumption first, and, if any external analysis at all, consumption-focussed reviews more than explanatory criticism. For either medium, the community engaged in critical review (largely academic) is not actively followed by either most consumers or most producers of the works in question -- there's some feedback (in both literature and games), because some consumers and some producers in each medium also engage in, or at least follow, criticism and let it influence how they consume or create works.
chasing 12y ago
I actually think we're in a gaming renaissance. The gaming world has never been more diverse, more inclusive, and more creatively challenging than ever before. It's pretty amazing. And arguably less corporate, given the number of amazing independent games out there at the moment. And democratic, given the openness of the platforms and distribution systems. I mean, there are dud games. And cash-grab games. And misogynistic games. And misogynistic gamers. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...
- _delirium 12y ago
  I think that's true, and actually what's triggered a series of current backlashes. "Gamer culture" is no longer one thing and people make lots of different kinds of games, targeted to many different audiences with different values and interests. One backlash that triggers is from people who feel a need to defend "gamer" as some kind of turf being invaded, with community norms that can't be violated (people who make "casual games", "games about queerness", or any range of other things outside a norm of hardcore+fun are "not real gamers"). Some people observing the turf-defenders of "gamerness" conclude those people are unsavory, and take this as an indication that gamer culture is unsavory. I see some possible ways that could play out, but I'm not sure how it will. Gamer could expand, or people doing other-than-traditional things could just dissociate themselves from gamers and label their stuff something else. I personally am wary of wading into gamer culture, because I see a lot of 4chan-type people with a lot of time on their hands harassing people who they find objectionable, including some people I know. So I prefer to label my game-ish stuff as something other than "games", and culturally target it at other audiences (like technologists, or interactive-art fans), so I can hopefully avoid attracting the attention of the more toxic parts of the gamer community. In that sense I'm kind of pragmatically aligned on the "end of gamer" side maybe.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    "Gamer culture" is no longer one thing and people make lots of different kinds of games, targeted to many different audiences with different values and interests. Gamer culture has never been concretely defined, and the phenomenon you're describing is hardly new. The advances that easily accessible development tools and digital distribution have given us, however, has made this much easier. One backlash that triggers is from people who feel a need to defend "gamer" as some kind of turf being invaded, with community norms that can't be violated (people who make "casual games", "games about queerness", or any range of other things outside a norm of hardcore+fun are "not real gamers"). Some people observing the turf-defenders of "gamerness" conclude those people are unsavory, and take this as an indication that gamer culture is unsavory. I believe you're misrepresenting the views that you outline. The question of who is a "real gamer" and who isn't, is a red herring. What people are most likely trying to say is that the people who play smartphone games occasionally, and the people who are heavily invested in gaming as a hobby, have an extensive knowledge of its history and many genres, who consume gaming media, are two different demographics. Despite both ostensibly playing games, they are different. To present them as equivalent is a falsehood. Thus, people who play "games about queerness" are also different from the hardcore AAA gamer demographic. This is why "gamer culture" is not a monolith, it has many subcultures. The ugly stuff happens when the different sides clash into each other ideologically, with lots of gratuitous and often childish flame warring ensuing in the process. Ultimately, what you're doing is overloading the term "gamer". Your jab at 4chan also demonstrates that you don't really understand their culture all too much, either. There's toxic people everywhere, and your desire to strive away even from the term "game" and to target it to "technologists" and "interactive art fans" leads to me believe that you're either developing in genres like visual novels and interactive fiction, where again, the demographics and even core theses are radically different from AAA games, or you're partly pretentious.
adlpz 12y ago
I very much think, in a first impression, that the author of this piece hasn't put much thought in his words beyond an urge to throw more of them in the fire. See this list: - I'm a rock music enthusiast, I buy every CD from X band. - I really enjoy novels, I read every book by X author - I'm a cinema lover, I watch every film from X director - I'm a gaming fanatic, I get every game from X studio - I'm really into X's art, I buy all his pieces Which one is not like the others? None. They are all forms of media consumption preference. All of them are used by people to describe and define themselves. They are all actively used and exploited by the industries for profit. And, of course, all of them have more or less acceptable idiosyncrasies of all kinds (what outfit is acceptable for this music style, what is the proper way of interpreting this art form, what knowledge is expected from you when loving this films, you name it). Why is someone describing himself as a "gamer" any worse than somebody describing himself to be a "romantic comedy film lover"?
- adwf 12y ago
  That's pretty much my thoughts exactly. Isn't gamer just a term for someone who plays videogames a lot? Sounds like the article is conflating gamers with "internet assholes", who can come from almost any group that exists online.
a2273493 12y ago
> Of all the strands of geek culture, gamers have always seemed to be the group most likely to explode in anger at challenges to their subculture. Of all the strands of geek culture I only dislike the social engineers like the author, who instead of focusing on technology try to analyze, criticize, categorize, and influence how other people behave.
Marcus316 12y ago
It's a little surreal reading about gamers. I am geek, through and through, and I have always enjoyed video games, but I don't seem to belong to gamer culture, as far as the internet is concerned. What happened to the social aspect of gaming? Why have all the arcades faded away? There are a few around, I guess, but it doesn't seem the same. I have always played games WITH people and in COMPETITION with people. Playing is, for me, about sharing. Maybe I'm not a gamer. Maybe the term "gamer" is too loaded to be redeemed at this point. But there is a culture of games and gaming that can (and does in some places, however few) exist without the baggage attached to the term. DISCLAIMER: I admit, I'm not into the same type of games that constantly get talked about; I don't play CoD, I've never really played much GTA, and most modern AAA games don't hold my attention very long (partly because I'm terrible at FPS games and other mainstream offerings).
- _delirium 12y ago
  There's a bit of a revival of interest in that style of gameplay (in-person, with a focus on the social-interaction aspect). The most common current term for it, afaik, is "local multiplayer".
Morphling 12y ago
First it was feminist agenda to transform gaming into something that fit their narrow world view, but since that failed pretty hard and even the most brain washed white knights are starting to see through their ruse especially in the light of the scandal around the depression quest. Now as a last resort all these same people are trying to paint the word "gamer" as something bad and undesirable. I'm not really surprised if they come up with a new term that they try to define with their agenda, gamers just have to be smart enough to see through their bullshit.
- _delirium 12y ago
  The "scandal around depression quest" is a bunch of lurid sexism, nothing more [1]. And "white knight" is a term invented by Redditors and not used by intelligent people. It may surprise you that plenty of men don't think of ourselves as part of some kind of "team man" fraternity where we have to stick up for "our side", and can't object to harassment of women, just as women also do. [1] a bit more discussion, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8267425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8267425
  - Cuuugi 12y ago
    There are plenty of intelligent Redditors. There are plenty of intelligent people with a differing opinion than you.
    - _delirium 12y ago
      There are indeed intelligent Redditors. However, people who use the phrase "white knights" are at best seriously misguided, and usually not among the intelligent subset. It's just a slur, not anything with content, like calling someone who acts in a way you deem insufficiently masculine a "pansy" or "fag".
nsxwolf 12y ago
If we're going to keep on using "misogynistic" as a synonym for "sexist", we're going to need a new word that means "hatred of women". Can I get some examples of truly misogynistic video games? I can't think of any except for "Custer's Revenge" on the Atari 2600. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge
- j2kun 12y ago
  I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?
  - nsxwolf 12y ago
    Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.
    - j2kun 12y ago
      I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.
MrDosu 12y ago
What a horrible article by a horrible journalist. Its Disgusting how the "gamer" stereotype is used in the same sense as hatespeech would use "them blacks".
Rainymood 12y ago
>Tainted by its misogyny and embrace of consumption as a way of life, gamer culture isn’t worth saving. Any article on 'gaming' that plays around with the word 'misogyny' in the first 10 lines is usually an article I don't like to read. But that is a whole 'nother story. >But to define oneself by media consumption is not just unhealthy, it’s vacuous. >But to define oneself by X consumption is not just unhealthy, it’s vacuous. Don't we all define oneself by what we consume? We consume food which shapes (defines) our bodies. We lift weights so we can shape, mold, sculpt and define our own bodies as we please. Is it unhealthy to label yourself a fashionista because you have a keen interest in fashion (consume fashion media), have a blog about it and love to buy new clothing?
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  This article has no content. Apparently journalism today is spewing sentences that on the surface look that they make sense, to enrage people. You need to get them angry before they had enough time to think about what they just read and realize there's nothing there. When they do get angry, they share and spread and bring pageviews and ad-dolars. Mission accomplished, congratulations. Your news outlet just got a bit richer. The world just got a bit worse.
- CocaKoala 12y ago
  You consume food; how many times has somebody asked you to tell them about yourself and you say, "Well, I like to eat food...I'd say I do it at least three times a day, maybe four if I get a bit hungry at night? I'm a big fan of lunch but I've really been exploring some new territory in breakfast lately and I've been getting to some pretty crazy stuff. I'll tell you, it's pretty wild". Oh, you don't do that? So maybe it's possible to consume something on a regular basis without letting it define your personality.
kelvin0 12y ago
The generalization of the 'gamer culture' as portrayed by this article and the negative premise based upon this generalization is misguided at best. Replace every instance of 'gamer/gaming' in the article with 'religious extremist' and presto ... you have a new article! Just because a few 'zealots' act out in such extreme behavior, doesn't make 'gamers/gaming' a bunch of slack jawed neanderthal brutes ... same for 'Religion/Politics..'
laughingbovine 12y ago
This guy turns "GamerGate" into a diatribe on corporate America. What? The recent terrible aftermath of all this "GamerGate" stuff is a direct cause of big companies leveraging geek and gamer culture to sell stuff? How does that make any sense? It's not the big gaming companies that drove Anita out of her house. How is this even related?
danielrpa 12y ago
This article is terrible. I love videogames and spend way more time talking about games and playing them than the average person. Thus, I'm a "gamer". Anything else is just overthinking.

27 points by minikites 12y ago

j2kun 12y ago

> Like all geek culture, [video game] culture is little more than the consumption of media as a means of identity formation. Already in the first paragraph I'm not so sure about the premise of this article... I don't connect with people who play video games just because they play video games, but because of a shared experience, language, and shared understanding that comes about from playing specific video games. Part of that involves the creation of ideas external to the immediate content of the video game itself, and it's often something that the creators of the game did not at all intend to be a central identifying feature. The cultural connections with someone are stronger with immediate shared experiences, which makes them decidedly personal. I can provide plenty of examples of this phenomenon. But even if you want to play devil's advocate and agree with the claim, it must necessarily extend to almost all "culture," be it art, news, food, music, movies. The vast majority of people in any culture are consumers of the fruits of that culture. This article makes it seem like an inherently bad thing, or a reason to belittle the culture. But the logical conclusion of the idea is ludicrous, because culture is an unambiguously good feature of human society. This isn't to defend misogynistic gamers (who I sincerely hope are an increasingly small fraction of gamers that just happen to be extremely vocal on the internet), but just to disagree with the unreasonable train of logic used in the article.

fmdud 12y ago
>This isn't to defend misogynistic gamers (who I sincerely hope are an increasingly small fraction of gamers that just happen to be extremely vocal on the internet. It's in the industry, too. It's not just a vocal minority.
- _delirium 12y ago
  That's true, although I think industry is getting better on the dev side (not as much on the corporate side), and at a faster rate than the consumer side of the culture. Developer events like GDC are worried about harassment and actively try to stop it, and a lot of developers in the current kerfuffle have actively distanced themselves from their less savory fans, e.g.: https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-community-df4511032e8a https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-...
dinglefuk 12y ago
I think by "gamer" the article means people whose identities are largely defined by video games. I disagree that gamers are necessarily misogynistic or even passively violent. I do agree that most gamers, as defined above, are highly consumeristic and intellectually deficient.
spindritf 12y ago
it must necessarily extend to almost all "culture," be it art, news, food, music, movies It does extend to a large swath of culture that has become nothing more than means for signalling. Maybe it has always been like that and art is simply more accessible now so more people engage in this affiliation by taste.
jrochkind1 12y ago
I think you maybe have some points, about the fact that video games aren't simply passive consumption, but involve active creation on the part of the 'consumer', in several ways. But. But. I want to draw attention to your assumption that all forms of culture are about 'consumption' -- there used to be forms of culture that did not involve money exchanging hands, and that were about shared creation, not about a presenter and an audience. Say, people getting together to play music and sing songs themselves. The fact that many of us can't anymore barely even conceive of 'culture' except as a purchased commodity is telling. It may be true that in 21st century U.S, "the vast majority of people in any culture are consumers of the fruits of that culture," but it is simply not true that ALL culture MUST be that way. One can critisize that mode of culture without thinking 'culture' is a bad thing.
- Arzh 12y ago
  Consumption doesn't mean that they pay for it with money. You can easily consume mario cart with out ever owning the game or paying money into it. Yes someone bought it, but even those musicians had to get there instruments from somewhere.
  - jrochkind1 12y ago
    It's true that it's not black and white, there are matters of degree, grey areas, and different aspects of consumption/participation. I think the basic point still stands though, that 'culture' has largely become something where it's assumed a minority produces and a majority consumes -- but this is not in fact an intrinsic aspect of culture, and it's perhaps only in the past 100 years that 'consumption' has become the dominant mode of culture at all. I also think you can make an argument that in some cases ad ways video games are a place where this mode of culture is actually challenged _more_ than currently typical (let's talk about minecraft).
- j2kun 12y ago
  Of course you're right. But especially these days even getting together and playing music and singing songs is full of "consumption" in the sense that you relate what you're doing to what you have consumed in the past. "Oh that riff sounds like Coldplay" or "What if we tried this vocal thing like Adele does in this song?" These kinds of influences are often unconscious. Even trying to avoid similarity to existing culture is tied up in the consumption of that culture, as has been the case with every revolution in art since the Renaissance. I would love to hear more examples of culture that you would claim aren't tied up with consumption. The only examples I can think of are cultures that emerge from things like suffrage and oppression.
everyone 12y ago
The following is a bit rambling btw! I make games for a living and love the art form. I regard games as trivial and a waste of time/resources however I just happen to be genuinely passionate about them and can actually manage to eke out a living making them (Unlike with music, my other passion) Anyway I have always found references to a 'gamer culture' or other such 'cultures' to be .. nonsensical? Or, like these 'fandoms', like the my little pony fandom etc. I think these kind of fandom people will imagine some kind of 'culture' around anything and its usually really bad quality stuff, eg terrible anime, terrible derivative multiplayer games, really bad juvenile comics, crappy collectible card games etc. Basically societies slightly less mainstream cultural crap. I have no idea why this seems to be the case. As far as I'm concerned I have always just really liked playing games, I consider myself somewhat of a connoisseur of the art form (As I would for most other media, music, film,comics,cartoons,) that does not make me a member of any particlar culture or sect imo. I also like to watch films but I dont consider myseld a 'filmer'
Justsignedup 12y ago
Look, the culture exists, maybe not for you. The true test is: If a criticism of your favorite video game makes you angry, you have a problem. Hell criticize any game I play, any operating system I use, any hardware I use, its all good. But this is not true for all people. Also the article rings very well with abuses seen in the video game industry. Why is it that working at a wall street firm making 200-300k a year while working ~ 10-12 hr shifts is seen as horrible, exploitative work, while working for a video game firm making 100-150k a year while working 12-14 hr shifts is seen as glorious work making stuff you love? Hell, I can work at a "normal" development job (I do) working 8 hrs a day, and have the rest of my day dedicated to enjoying myself (which can include playing games, making games, making hardware, hacking hardware, human interaction, family life, you pick it).
- j2kun 12y ago
  What? I think you misread my comment. The article's central argument is, "Even if all gamers were tolerant and accepting, gamer culture is still inherently worthless because it's based on consumption." I take issue with this thesis on multiple levels, and your reply is addressing something entirely different.
laughingbovine 12y ago
You're right to say that this critique of culture should, logically, apply to all, but the writer goes back on his premise a few paragraphs in and instead says this: > Gamer identity is tainted, root and branch, by its embrace of consumption as a way of life.

hippiehippo 12y ago

Is it me, or does it seem that there's an inflation of "death to the gamer" articles in the last couple of weeks? "Gamers are over" - Gamasutra "The death of the 'gamers'" - Ars Technica "Death of an identity" - Kotaku "killing the gamer identity" - Vice and so on

elarkin 12y ago
You aren't wrong. David Auerbach at Slate has written a small piece on it: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gamergate_explodes_gaming_journalists_declare_the_gamers_are_over_but_they.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/09/gam...
- jacquesm 12y ago
  This is like people that stopped smoking and are now telling others they suck because they still smoke.
vlunkr 12y ago
I've noticed this as well. What an oddly specific trend.
- MrDom 12y ago
  It's not odd. #GamerGate is the gaming community speaking out against what they perceive as corruption in gaming and games journalism. Game journalists are firing back. Everything else is a sideshow intended to distract from that.
sosuke 12y ago
I feel like it has been for the past year, it is exhausting. I think there is a real term for it but at first I was in shock, and now I'm tired of hearing it, being lumped in the same category with folks doing some nasty evil stuff. I just want to play with my trains, shoot friends in CoD and explore wild fantasy worlds. I don't support the harassment or abuse of any person, I feel sorry for these people who are under attack. I don't have an answer on how to stop it, or improve the landscape. Is it even possible to stop some people from being vile? How do you say 'No, you can't think those things, you can't talk like that.' and have an impact on someone who feels completely secure and self-righteous from their position? I don't want to feel guilt for being a man who likes video games.

thisjepisje 12y ago

The lowercase t is too small.

nixpulvis 12y ago

I play a decent bit of video games, and used to play a LOT more, by some standards I might be called a gamer still. I've defiantly seen some of what you mention, however, I've also seen some of the best communities of people. I play WoW, and the guild I play with has a relatively good mix of nationality and gender, and I've never once heard someone berate or look down upon our female players. I think as with most things, there is a spectrum.

anvildoc 12y ago
I agree. This article seems to be aimed at frat houses playing GTA. In fact, I betcha you could replace the word "gamers" in this article with anything and it would still work. In my gaming experiences, fellow gamers (even hyper competitive ones) are for the most part intelligent, inclusive, nice people. If anything, this article is a gross over-generalization of a population.
- numo16 12y ago
  It attitude of the gaming community changes based on which game's community you are focusing on. The communities that usually fit the negative connotations often mentioned, in my mind, are League of Legends and CoD (most FPS games, especially on consoles, for that matter), which seem to be filled with people who are vitriolic assholes for the sake of being assholes. However, this is just my experience with these communities in the past and may be different for others. I know a fair majority of gamers aren't your GTA/CoD dudebros and screaming 12 year olds, but I feel that many people outside of gaming culture see it as such, which seems to be the biggest problem with "gamer" culture.
GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
"I've never once heard someone berate or look down upon our female players." Were you actually paying attention?

nerdy 12y ago

Does this article strike anyone else as being a bit pedantic?

tptacek 12y ago

I don't get it. Is literature tainted, root and branch, because for much of the last 150 years it too was driven by consumption? Should we avoid Dickens, because he published in for-profit serials that carried advertising?

jtbigwoo 12y ago
There's a difference between the culture of literature and the culture of gaming. I think it boils down to the difference between reviews and criticism. Games, for the most part, get reviewed. Reviews are functional and focused on consumption. A review seeks to answer a few questions about its subject: Does it work as intended? Is it entertaining? Is it a good value? Books, on the other hand, sometimes are subject to criticism. Criticism explores, interprets, and analyzes. It asks "why" and "how" questions. The best criticism expands and changes its subject. Literature as a culture has its roots in both original work and criticism. Almost as soon as there were works to read, there was literary criticism. (The Talmud springs to mind as an early example.) Certainly, most readers and many critics are more interested in reviews than criticism, but the feedback from criticism has been fundamental to the development of literature. This balance makes literary culture much different from gamer culture. Even with games aspire to be art, the reviews go like this: The game explores themes of identity and abandonment. Who are we and how are we separate from each other? It might be art. The controls are a bit laggy and the game is only two hours long, which isn't great value for $10. I give it an 8 out of 10. I've read a few game reviews that go farther but these are few and far between. Maybe the recent controversies will start us down a new path. EDIT: I wish HN had a preview button.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  The big disagreement I have with your argument is this: sure, games for the most part get reviewed -- the same is true of literature. There is criticism, as opposed to review, of both games and books, but most readers, like most gamers, are interested in consumption first, and, if any external analysis at all, consumption-focussed reviews more than explanatory criticism. For either medium, the community engaged in critical review (largely academic) is not actively followed by either most consumers or most producers of the works in question -- there's some feedback (in both literature and games), because some consumers and some producers in each medium also engage in, or at least follow, criticism and let it influence how they consume or create works.

chasing 12y ago

I actually think we're in a gaming renaissance. The gaming world has never been more diverse, more inclusive, and more creatively challenging than ever before. It's pretty amazing. And arguably less corporate, given the number of amazing independent games out there at the moment. And democratic, given the openness of the platforms and distribution systems. I mean, there are dud games. And cash-grab games. And misogynistic games. And misogynistic gamers. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater...

_delirium 12y ago
I think that's true, and actually what's triggered a series of current backlashes. "Gamer culture" is no longer one thing and people make lots of different kinds of games, targeted to many different audiences with different values and interests. One backlash that triggers is from people who feel a need to defend "gamer" as some kind of turf being invaded, with community norms that can't be violated (people who make "casual games", "games about queerness", or any range of other things outside a norm of hardcore+fun are "not real gamers"). Some people observing the turf-defenders of "gamerness" conclude those people are unsavory, and take this as an indication that gamer culture is unsavory. I see some possible ways that could play out, but I'm not sure how it will. Gamer could expand, or people doing other-than-traditional things could just dissociate themselves from gamers and label their stuff something else. I personally am wary of wading into gamer culture, because I see a lot of 4chan-type people with a lot of time on their hands harassing people who they find objectionable, including some people I know. So I prefer to label my game-ish stuff as something other than "games", and culturally target it at other audiences (like technologists, or interactive-art fans), so I can hopefully avoid attracting the attention of the more toxic parts of the gamer community. In that sense I'm kind of pragmatically aligned on the "end of gamer" side maybe.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  "Gamer culture" is no longer one thing and people make lots of different kinds of games, targeted to many different audiences with different values and interests. Gamer culture has never been concretely defined, and the phenomenon you're describing is hardly new. The advances that easily accessible development tools and digital distribution have given us, however, has made this much easier. One backlash that triggers is from people who feel a need to defend "gamer" as some kind of turf being invaded, with community norms that can't be violated (people who make "casual games", "games about queerness", or any range of other things outside a norm of hardcore+fun are "not real gamers"). Some people observing the turf-defenders of "gamerness" conclude those people are unsavory, and take this as an indication that gamer culture is unsavory. I believe you're misrepresenting the views that you outline. The question of who is a "real gamer" and who isn't, is a red herring. What people are most likely trying to say is that the people who play smartphone games occasionally, and the people who are heavily invested in gaming as a hobby, have an extensive knowledge of its history and many genres, who consume gaming media, are two different demographics. Despite both ostensibly playing games, they are different. To present them as equivalent is a falsehood. Thus, people who play "games about queerness" are also different from the hardcore AAA gamer demographic. This is why "gamer culture" is not a monolith, it has many subcultures. The ugly stuff happens when the different sides clash into each other ideologically, with lots of gratuitous and often childish flame warring ensuing in the process. Ultimately, what you're doing is overloading the term "gamer". Your jab at 4chan also demonstrates that you don't really understand their culture all too much, either. There's toxic people everywhere, and your desire to strive away even from the term "game" and to target it to "technologists" and "interactive art fans" leads to me believe that you're either developing in genres like visual novels and interactive fiction, where again, the demographics and even core theses are radically different from AAA games, or you're partly pretentious.

adlpz 12y ago

I very much think, in a first impression, that the author of this piece hasn't put much thought in his words beyond an urge to throw more of them in the fire. See this list: - I'm a rock music enthusiast, I buy every CD from X band. - I really enjoy novels, I read every book by X author - I'm a cinema lover, I watch every film from X director - I'm a gaming fanatic, I get every game from X studio - I'm really into X's art, I buy all his pieces Which one is not like the others? None. They are all forms of media consumption preference. All of them are used by people to describe and define themselves. They are all actively used and exploited by the industries for profit. And, of course, all of them have more or less acceptable idiosyncrasies of all kinds (what outfit is acceptable for this music style, what is the proper way of interpreting this art form, what knowledge is expected from you when loving this films, you name it). Why is someone describing himself as a "gamer" any worse than somebody describing himself to be a "romantic comedy film lover"?

adwf 12y ago
That's pretty much my thoughts exactly. Isn't gamer just a term for someone who plays videogames a lot? Sounds like the article is conflating gamers with "internet assholes", who can come from almost any group that exists online.

a2273493 12y ago

> Of all the strands of geek culture, gamers have always seemed to be the group most likely to explode in anger at challenges to their subculture. Of all the strands of geek culture I only dislike the social engineers like the author, who instead of focusing on technology try to analyze, criticize, categorize, and influence how other people behave.

Marcus316 12y ago

It's a little surreal reading about gamers. I am geek, through and through, and I have always enjoyed video games, but I don't seem to belong to gamer culture, as far as the internet is concerned. What happened to the social aspect of gaming? Why have all the arcades faded away? There are a few around, I guess, but it doesn't seem the same. I have always played games WITH people and in COMPETITION with people. Playing is, for me, about sharing. Maybe I'm not a gamer. Maybe the term "gamer" is too loaded to be redeemed at this point. But there is a culture of games and gaming that can (and does in some places, however few) exist without the baggage attached to the term. DISCLAIMER: I admit, I'm not into the same type of games that constantly get talked about; I don't play CoD, I've never really played much GTA, and most modern AAA games don't hold my attention very long (partly because I'm terrible at FPS games and other mainstream offerings).

_delirium 12y ago
There's a bit of a revival of interest in that style of gameplay (in-person, with a focus on the social-interaction aspect). The most common current term for it, afaik, is "local multiplayer".

Morphling 12y ago

First it was feminist agenda to transform gaming into something that fit their narrow world view, but since that failed pretty hard and even the most brain washed white knights are starting to see through their ruse especially in the light of the scandal around the depression quest. Now as a last resort all these same people are trying to paint the word "gamer" as something bad and undesirable. I'm not really surprised if they come up with a new term that they try to define with their agenda, gamers just have to be smart enough to see through their bullshit.

_delirium 12y ago
The "scandal around depression quest" is a bunch of lurid sexism, nothing more [1]. And "white knight" is a term invented by Redditors and not used by intelligent people. It may surprise you that plenty of men don't think of ourselves as part of some kind of "team man" fraternity where we have to stick up for "our side", and can't object to harassment of women, just as women also do. [1] a bit more discussion, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8267425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8267425
- Cuuugi 12y ago
  There are plenty of intelligent Redditors. There are plenty of intelligent people with a differing opinion than you.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    There are indeed intelligent Redditors. However, people who use the phrase "white knights" are at best seriously misguided, and usually not among the intelligent subset. It's just a slur, not anything with content, like calling someone who acts in a way you deem insufficiently masculine a "pansy" or "fag".

nsxwolf 12y ago

If we're going to keep on using "misogynistic" as a synonym for "sexist", we're going to need a new word that means "hatred of women". Can I get some examples of truly misogynistic video games? I can't think of any except for "Custer's Revenge" on the Atari 2600. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer's_Revenge

j2kun 12y ago
I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.
  - j2kun 12y ago
    I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.

MrDosu 12y ago

What a horrible article by a horrible journalist. Its Disgusting how the "gamer" stereotype is used in the same sense as hatespeech would use "them blacks".

Rainymood 12y ago

>Tainted by its misogyny and embrace of consumption as a way of life, gamer culture isn’t worth saving. Any article on 'gaming' that plays around with the word 'misogyny' in the first 10 lines is usually an article I don't like to read. But that is a whole 'nother story. >But to define oneself by media consumption is not just unhealthy, it’s vacuous. >But to define oneself by X consumption is not just unhealthy, it’s vacuous. Don't we all define oneself by what we consume? We consume food which shapes (defines) our bodies. We lift weights so we can shape, mold, sculpt and define our own bodies as we please. Is it unhealthy to label yourself a fashionista because you have a keen interest in fashion (consume fashion media), have a blog about it and love to buy new clothing?

TeMPOraL 12y ago
This article has no content. Apparently journalism today is spewing sentences that on the surface look that they make sense, to enrage people. You need to get them angry before they had enough time to think about what they just read and realize there's nothing there. When they do get angry, they share and spread and bring pageviews and ad-dolars. Mission accomplished, congratulations. Your news outlet just got a bit richer. The world just got a bit worse.
CocaKoala 12y ago
You consume food; how many times has somebody asked you to tell them about yourself and you say, "Well, I like to eat food...I'd say I do it at least three times a day, maybe four if I get a bit hungry at night? I'm a big fan of lunch but I've really been exploring some new territory in breakfast lately and I've been getting to some pretty crazy stuff. I'll tell you, it's pretty wild". Oh, you don't do that? So maybe it's possible to consume something on a regular basis without letting it define your personality.

kelvin0 12y ago

The generalization of the 'gamer culture' as portrayed by this article and the negative premise based upon this generalization is misguided at best. Replace every instance of 'gamer/gaming' in the article with 'religious extremist' and presto ... you have a new article! Just because a few 'zealots' act out in such extreme behavior, doesn't make 'gamers/gaming' a bunch of slack jawed neanderthal brutes ... same for 'Religion/Politics..'

laughingbovine 12y ago

This guy turns "GamerGate" into a diatribe on corporate America. What? The recent terrible aftermath of all this "GamerGate" stuff is a direct cause of big companies leveraging geek and gamer culture to sell stuff? How does that make any sense? It's not the big gaming companies that drove Anita out of her house. How is this even related?

danielrpa 12y ago

This article is terrible. I love videogames and spend way more time talking about games and playing them than the average person. Thus, I'm a "gamer". Anything else is just overthinking.