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- We worked for 2 years - then we wrote him and waited for 2... weeks! - we got no response so we went ahead... and he was mad - we wrote back... and waited

- We worked for 2 years - then we wrote him and waited for 2... weeks! - we got no response so we went ahead... and he was mad - we wrote back... and waited A. Whole. Day. - we got no response, so we are going ahead... - what could possibly go wrong?!

grayclhn 12y ago
IIRC, there were attempts at communication before the 2 years of work.
- chipotle_coyote 12y ago
  I don't think there was much. There were a couple grumpy tweets exchanged and blog posts written. But from reading Atwood's own posts on the subject, the timeline appears to run: complain Markdown needs a standard; learn Gruber isn't enthusiastic about that; work on a standard in secret for two years anyway; at the end of the two years let him know that you plan to release it (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?); take his failure to respond to your (apparently single) email in two weeks as implicit permission; go ahead and do it anyway; propose a new slightly-changed name when a shitstorm erupts; take Gruber's failure to respond to email about the name change in a single day as implicit approval. I'm down with the idea of developers getting together and forming a common standard for Markdown implementations if they want to do so, but Atwood & Company have consciously and deliberately thumbed their nose at Gruber through this whole process. They could have just called it "Plain Text Markup" and explained in the first paragraph that yes, it's Markdown with all the ambiguities taken out. Hell, they could have called it "PTM: The Standardized Markdown Specification." They could have even called it "Pandoc-Flavored Markdown," which AFAICT is (mostly) what it is. But "Standard Markdown" came across as we are taking control of Markdown over your objections and the way they developed and announced it greatly amplifies that reading. I'm not convinced "Common Markdown" is much of an improvement, and the "Well, we're pretty sure this will make John happy even though we didn't actually wait for his response" definitely doesn't help.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    > (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?) I would guess the answer to be "Release it anyway", because Gruber's blessing is not something that was considered a requirement.
8ig8 12y ago
Why aren't these parties using the telephone (or similar) to communicate? It seems like when things get to this level, talking makes the most sense. No reply to my important email. That warrants a phone call in my book? Email is convenient, but it may not be optimum all the time.
Kylekramer 12y ago
Gruber knew this was coming for years (http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/) and had repeatedly made it clear he dislikes the idea and won't approve. Waiting for Gruber to do something regarding Markdown is an exercise in futility.
dtournemille 12y ago
Ha, that about sums it up.
vanilla 12y ago
when you listen to him the linked podcast, you will understand why they went ahead after 2 weeks of no contact. He has an established tendency to do that. Even in the podcast he mentions an (serious and lucrative) offer for his @markdown twitter account, instead of answering he actively chooses not to. He mentions the ongoing discussion on HIS mailing list which he read has a opinion about, but chooses not to respond.

grayclhn 12y ago

IIRC, there were attempts at communication before the 2 years of work.

chipotle_coyote 12y ago
I don't think there was much. There were a couple grumpy tweets exchanged and blog posts written. But from reading Atwood's own posts on the subject, the timeline appears to run: complain Markdown needs a standard; learn Gruber isn't enthusiastic about that; work on a standard in secret for two years anyway; at the end of the two years let him know that you plan to release it (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?); take his failure to respond to your (apparently single) email in two weeks as implicit permission; go ahead and do it anyway; propose a new slightly-changed name when a shitstorm erupts; take Gruber's failure to respond to email about the name change in a single day as implicit approval. I'm down with the idea of developers getting together and forming a common standard for Markdown implementations if they want to do so, but Atwood & Company have consciously and deliberately thumbed their nose at Gruber through this whole process. They could have just called it "Plain Text Markup" and explained in the first paragraph that yes, it's Markdown with all the ambiguities taken out. Hell, they could have called it "PTM: The Standardized Markdown Specification." They could have even called it "Pandoc-Flavored Markdown," which AFAICT is (mostly) what it is. But "Standard Markdown" came across as we are taking control of Markdown over your objections and the way they developed and announced it greatly amplifies that reading. I'm not convinced "Common Markdown" is much of an improvement, and the "Well, we're pretty sure this will make John happy even though we didn't actually wait for his response" definitely doesn't help.
- Kalium 12y ago
  > (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?) I would guess the answer to be "Release it anyway", because Gruber's blessing is not something that was considered a requirement.

8ig8 12y ago

Why aren't these parties using the telephone (or similar) to communicate? It seems like when things get to this level, talking makes the most sense. No reply to my important email. That warrants a phone call in my book? Email is convenient, but it may not be optimum all the time.

Kylekramer 12y ago

Gruber knew this was coming for years (http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/) and had repeatedly made it clear he dislikes the idea and won't approve. Waiting for Gruber to do something regarding Markdown is an exercise in futility.

dtournemille 12y ago

Ha, that about sums it up.

vanilla 12y ago

when you listen to him the linked podcast, you will understand why they went ahead after 2 weeks of no contact. He has an established tendency to do that. Even in the podcast he mentions an (serious and lucrative) offer for his @markdown twitter account, instead of answering he actively chooses not to. He mentions the ongoing discussion on HIS mailing list which he read has a opinion about, but chooses not to respond.