11 ms·

> 1. Rename the project. OK. > 2. Shut down the standardmarkdown.com domain, and don't redirect it. Don't redirect it? Seriously? > 3. Apologize. This guy

> 1. Rename the project. OK. > 2. Shut down the standardmarkdown.com domain, and don't redirect it. Don't redirect it? Seriously? > 3. Apologize. This guy is actually a prick. EDIT: OK that was unfair. If I was in Gruber's position, maybe I'd be angry, and maybe I would have demanded an apology; it doesn't make him a prick. But the "don't redirect" thing seems petty.

smackfu 12y ago
Redirecting it means it will stay a thing forever. Not redirecting a day old domain means the name will be forgotten in a week.
- ProAm 12y ago
  Especially something that is only 3 days old, people will learn the new name fast enough
shard972 12y ago
> Don't redirect it? Seriously? To what? > This guy is actually a prick. That escalated quickly.
- MCRed 12y ago
  But who escalated it? Gruber spent a few hours many years ago, and hasn't bothered to incorporate changes in open source tradition, leaving Markdown a half implemented mess. These people picked it up, and rather renaming it (which they should have done, but which also would have resulted in a tirade from gruber) they kept his name. Que tirade from gruber. That's where the quick escalation happened.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    A private email "tirade" which is showing some restraint when you have as big a blog audience as Daring Fireball.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    "Open source tradition"? Can I ask after your own open source contributions, so I can get a sense of the authority behind this assessment of how "open source" works?
    - coldtea 12y ago
      No need to see his "credentials". It's not like HN people don't know follow OSS projects and can't tell when the creator of one is being an inpediment. Even if that's not how all "open source" works, its how the sucessful projects do.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Right there: the idea that the creator of an open source product could be an "impediment". The belief that you are entitled to any convenience that could flow from someone else's work.
    - bionsuba 12y ago
      Tu quoque, his OSS contributions have nothing to do with his claim.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        No, that's true, but there's nothing else backing his claim either.
bhouston 12y ago
I agree that redirecting should have been okay. But really StackExchange and Github have massive google juice and influence, they can push up any domain in Google rankings they want -- so it won't actually hurt.
coldtea 12y ago
What "position"? He is a prick. He created something that got popular (and which was derivative itself, in the first place, but anyway), and when people try to standardize and fix its flaws, he objects. Any decent, non-prick, person in the tech world that I know of would be happy and flattered to have his 10+ years neglected project be improved, standardized and fixed, and either he would get involved in the process, or say "sorry guys, I don't have time, but I wish you all the luck". This prima-donna behavior means he should be left out for any future discussion regarding Markdown and ignored.
- eevilspock 12y ago
  > and when people try to standardize and fix its flaws, he objects. No. He is only objecting to the name. He holds rights to the name[1], similarly to Linus Torvolds holding rights to "Linux"[2]. Anyone can fork Linux, but forks lose the name unless Linus approves. Otherwise the name loses meaning and value fast. Would you call Torvolds a prima-donna? And if he is, has that been a good or bad thing for Linux? [1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license [2] Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Linux%20is%20a%20registered%20trademark%20of%20Linus%20Torvalds.%22 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Linux%20is%20a%20registered%20t...
  - Nick-Craver 12y ago
    I'm not sure what you're comparing here...Linux is a registered trademark, Markdown is not. There really is a big distinction here, so comparing them as equals doesn't work.
    - eevilspock 12y ago
      "You do not have to register a trademark to use one or have legal claims (called common law rights)"[1][2]. Sure, registered trademarks provide some additional strength. I said "similarly" for a reason. Nevertheless, we're talking about who's being a "prick" here, and being a class-A prick has nothing to due with the law. The "Gruber is a prick" vs "Atwood is a prick" debate has been done before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4716322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4716322. If they had stuck with the idea to name it "Rockdown", there would be no problem. In fact, we can now see that Atwood is being dishonest when he says: > "We then waited two weeks for a response. There was no response, so we assumed that John Gruber was either OK with the project (and its name), or didn't care. So we proceeded." Gruber had already responded TWO YEARS prior with a "No!" FWIW, I don't like Gruber. But that's not a good reason to overlook Atwood's dick moves. Maybe it's time for a little humor? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8272614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8272614 - [1] http://inventors.about.com/od/trademarks/a/register.htm http://inventors.about.com/od/trademarks/a/register.htm [2] http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426681 http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426681

smackfu 12y ago

Redirecting it means it will stay a thing forever. Not redirecting a day old domain means the name will be forgotten in a week.

ProAm 12y ago
Especially something that is only 3 days old, people will learn the new name fast enough

shard972 12y ago

> Don't redirect it? Seriously? To what? > This guy is actually a prick. That escalated quickly.

MCRed 12y ago
But who escalated it? Gruber spent a few hours many years ago, and hasn't bothered to incorporate changes in open source tradition, leaving Markdown a half implemented mess. These people picked it up, and rather renaming it (which they should have done, but which also would have resulted in a tirade from gruber) they kept his name. Que tirade from gruber. That's where the quick escalation happened.
- smackfu 12y ago
  A private email "tirade" which is showing some restraint when you have as big a blog audience as Daring Fireball.
- tptacek 12y ago
  "Open source tradition"? Can I ask after your own open source contributions, so I can get a sense of the authority behind this assessment of how "open source" works?
  - coldtea 12y ago
    No need to see his "credentials". It's not like HN people don't know follow OSS projects and can't tell when the creator of one is being an inpediment. Even if that's not how all "open source" works, its how the sucessful projects do.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Right there: the idea that the creator of an open source product could be an "impediment". The belief that you are entitled to any convenience that could flow from someone else's work.
  - bionsuba 12y ago
    Tu quoque, his OSS contributions have nothing to do with his claim.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      No, that's true, but there's nothing else backing his claim either.

bhouston 12y ago

I agree that redirecting should have been okay. But really StackExchange and Github have massive google juice and influence, they can push up any domain in Google rankings they want -- so it won't actually hurt.

coldtea 12y ago

What "position"? He is a prick. He created something that got popular (and which was derivative itself, in the first place, but anyway), and when people try to standardize and fix its flaws, he objects. Any decent, non-prick, person in the tech world that I know of would be happy and flattered to have his 10+ years neglected project be improved, standardized and fixed, and either he would get involved in the process, or say "sorry guys, I don't have time, but I wish you all the luck". This prima-donna behavior means he should be left out for any future discussion regarding Markdown and ignored.

eevilspock 12y ago
> and when people try to standardize and fix its flaws, he objects. No. He is only objecting to the name. He holds rights to the name[1], similarly to Linus Torvolds holding rights to "Linux"[2]. Anyone can fork Linux, but forks lose the name unless Linus approves. Otherwise the name loses meaning and value fast. Would you call Torvolds a prima-donna? And if he is, has that been a good or bad thing for Linux? [1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license [2] Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Linux%20is%20a%20registered%20trademark%20of%20Linus%20Torvalds.%22 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Linux%20is%20a%20registered%20t...
- Nick-Craver 12y ago
  I'm not sure what you're comparing here...Linux is a registered trademark, Markdown is not. There really is a big distinction here, so comparing them as equals doesn't work.
  - eevilspock 12y ago
    "You do not have to register a trademark to use one or have legal claims (called common law rights)"[1][2]. Sure, registered trademarks provide some additional strength. I said "similarly" for a reason. Nevertheless, we're talking about who's being a "prick" here, and being a class-A prick has nothing to due with the law. The "Gruber is a prick" vs "Atwood is a prick" debate has been done before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4716322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4716322. If they had stuck with the idea to name it "Rockdown", there would be no problem. In fact, we can now see that Atwood is being dishonest when he says: > "We then waited two weeks for a response. There was no response, so we assumed that John Gruber was either OK with the project (and its name), or didn't care. So we proceeded." Gruber had already responded TWO YEARS prior with a "No!" FWIW, I don't like Gruber. But that's not a good reason to overlook Atwood's dick moves. Maybe it's time for a little humor? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8272614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8272614 - [1] http://inventors.about.com/od/trademarks/a/register.htm http://inventors.about.com/od/trademarks/a/register.htm [2] http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426681 http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426681