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How Samsung's VR Headset Convinced John Carmack to Join Oculus VR

70 points by ismavis 12y ago

omglol 12y ago
engadget is not a credible source for any news...
- bagels 12y ago
  omglol is not a credible source for any reviews of news sites...
- mmanfrin 12y ago
  Why's that?
- declan 12y ago
  I have no affiliation with Engadget (in fact, I've spent over a decade working at competitors to Engadget). But I've found that it makes sense to evaluate news organizations' output on an article-by-article basis. Even the best news organizations can screw things up on occasion, and even excellent reporters can be assigned derivative stories by their editors. The article-by-article approach is what http://recent.io/ http://recent.io/ uses in its pipeline, which is working very well in testing so far. More to the point, this looks like a perfectly decent story and an engaging read. The writer even managed to avoid being snarky about Samsung trying (sigh) to second-guess John Carmack!
ajmurmann 12y ago
"And I had argued for it a long time. I wrote so many of these multi-page emails about how important it was. But once we had it so people could see and see that it really does work, then Samsung went and wrote a proper interface for it." Wow, I really have to admire his patience. While reading this I was even thinking "They are arguing with John Carmack about what he needs to get the graphics right? Who do they think they are?!" and I am not him. I would never have the patience for this. That must be like my grandma arguing with me about programming.
- fidotron 12y ago
  I too admire his patience, but outside of the games and graphics industries and PC gaming community he is a relative obscurity. The other people involved are from other worlds with different idols.
  - pyre 12y ago
    Surely he doesn't need to be an idol or hero to someone for his accomplishments and skills to be acknowledged.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      His largest achievements were years ago, though. Doom was one, Quake another, and Quake 3 probably the last big step. Afterwards, he hasn't distinguished himself so much (I don't think Rage was very impressive, for example), so unless you keep pushing the limits every single time, your reputation can fade quickly.
      - teamonkey 12y ago
        The Doom 3 engine was impressive at the time for its dynamic lighting and shadows. He also developed megatextures for Rage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture
        ekianjo 12y ago
        I don't know if you could the Doom 3 tech impressive - I always found that at the time, it looked like a dirty hack rather than being genuinely impressive. Later games with soft shadows looked much better. And for Rage I'm aware of the megatextures, but that looked horrible for anything that was close to you - again a failed tech. EDIT: interesting, getting downvoted because I wasn't impressed by Carmack's later productions?
        Negitivefrags 12y ago
dharma1 12y ago
so how do I create content for this thing? unity3d -> export to Android - or something else?
greyskull 12y ago
> Gear VR's been in development for around 1.5 years now Wow. That puts it not too long after the Oculus Rift kickstarter, which was in October 2012. I wonder how the Gear project came to start. Were there some graphics enthusiasts with moving power at Samsung that went "this. we need to get on this"?
iandanforth 12y ago
I truly do not understand this. Why would you want to dilute presence? Why would you want to create an expensive phone accessory when the hardware changes constantly and the software is extremely fragmented? There are plenty of scenarios where I can see usinga Rift, but very very few where I am 'mobile' and want to experience VR. Of those cases I can't see any where a dedicated and occasionally updated set of hardware isn't a better development experience than trying to deal with VR hassles on top of all the standard android ones. Please someone point out what Carmack gets here that eludes me.
- readerrrr 12y ago
  It is simple. The target Carmack is aiming for is mobile VR. Tethered experience is a necessary middle step. Oculus will release their version in the future and Gear allows him to develop the tech.
  - mietek 12y ago
    You could say mobile VR is a necessary step towards AR (augmented reality). http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-hard-ar-anytime-soon/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-hard-...
- endergen 12y ago
  Wireless for starters is just better and required for VR to rock, with the exception of seated experiences (racing, flight sims, mech games, etc) where presence is kept and you can benefit from a PCs far less limited GPU/CPU capabilities. Also they have a direct line with the phone manufacturer for the display technology and with this strategy of tying in with the mobile world, they can potentially get into a loop of rapidly updating hardware that's subsidized by phone contracts and the like. The limitations of mobile graphics can and will be solved in hardware and software. It may turn out for instance that something focused on high FPS and resolution can be achieved via low complexity shaders and some novel custom display/GPU hardware.
- mkeblx 12y ago
  It's less about the mobile as in using-while-walking-around than the ability to have with you wherever you're at and not tied down to the context of sitting in front of a PC. VR is for everywhere: the couch, the kitchen table, in class, at work, social gathering where you can easily share it, etc. The tether of the current dev kits actually takes away from presence. While there are hassles of VR with Android that were only solved by making deep changes to Android, the hassles of PC are greater. And this is a phone accessory that is specifically not designed for changing hardware and software: it only works with the Note 4 running a custom optimized version of Android. But they do agree with you that a dedicated unit is what they want to do as well which is why this is not their own consumer unit.
melling 12y ago
Why do we need to tether to a desktop for the extra power? Can't we create a wireless video standard to drive the VR headset?
- TheCoreh 12y ago
  I believe latency would not be acceptable with current wireless technology.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Wireless video can have approximately one millisecond latency today, I'm not sure how bad that would be wrt to things like nausea but it seems pretty short to me.
    - ctdonath 12y ago
      Article sez Carmack's first big fight was convincing Samsung that a two frame delay was too long. WAY too long. And it was important enough that he wrote an "obscene workaround" to avoid that "pretty short" latency. I've been casually following Carmack & Occulus for a while; recurring theme is "X ms delay is too long". IIRC (corrections please?), wasn't until latency got down to 20ms that the nausea etc subsided. That doesn't leave much room to both render a high-res complex image and display it by anything more than the shortest transmission time conceivable.
      - omellet 12y ago
        2 frames at 60Hz is about 33ms, which is way more than 1ms latency from a wireless hop.
        ctdonath 12y ago
        Reconsider: 2 frames at 60Hz was an intolerable 33ms too long, he needed it down to 16ms total. Your optimistic 1ms latency cuts into that maximum refresh time by 7%, time that will (or is already) in high demand by meaningful/viable applications. You're also assuming a highly customized/optimized scenario for the wireless hop, nigh unto a straight analog signal. Digital processing will extend that, likely adding at least one full frame delay - again, something Carmack severely objected to and fought mightily against.
moron4hire 12y ago
So, I've been working on making it easy to make WebGL VR demos: https://github.com/capnmidnight/VR https://github.com/capnmidnight/VR
skizm 12y ago
2014 and there are still websites that auto start videos? At the bottom of the page no less? I pretty much ctrl+q out of fear at this point. Autoplaying videos = virus/phishing website in my head.
- runeks 12y ago
  You should enable click-to-play for Flash content in your browser. It both improves security and prevents auto starting videos.
  - skizm 12y ago
    Nice, didn't know that existed. Thanks.
pimlottc 12y ago
I'm confused. I know Carmack joined Oculus, but what's this about Samsung? I take it they're working together now? It's still two different pieces of hardware, right? This article is leaving out some crucial context here.
- Htsthbjig 12y ago
  "but what's this about Samsung?" It is called "the screen". Samsumg manufactures(mass produces) the best screens in the world. Their OLED screens are the best quality, simple, lightweight and extremely fast response. Oculus needs Samsung screens. Samsumg needs oculus talent, so they are partners.
  - pimlottc 12y ago
    Sure, I'm not saying it didn't make sense, just that the article didn't bother to explain it at all. If you start off by saying someone works for one company, then start going on about his doing stuff for another company, you ought to explain what the two of the have to do with each other.
- wastedhours 12y ago
  Yep. Gear VR is like a posh Google Cardboard with a Samsung Note 4 strapped to the front (a, probably, offensive oversimplification, it actually has tech in the headset, but it's just a face-holder for the phone), and the Oculus Developer Kit is the whole thing in one package that plugs in like a monitor to your computer.
yummybear 12y ago
Is there, currently, a way to put positional headtracking into a wireless device (without using a fixed camera)?
- madgeeklabs 12y ago
  Using the device camera together with Microsoft Photosynth technology would be viable. Maybe not in the time required to be confortable for the wearer of tbe VR set.

70 points by ismavis 12y ago

omglol 12y ago

engadget is not a credible source for any news...

bagels 12y ago
omglol is not a credible source for any reviews of news sites...
mmanfrin 12y ago
Why's that?
declan 12y ago
I have no affiliation with Engadget (in fact, I've spent over a decade working at competitors to Engadget). But I've found that it makes sense to evaluate news organizations' output on an article-by-article basis. Even the best news organizations can screw things up on occasion, and even excellent reporters can be assigned derivative stories by their editors. The article-by-article approach is what http://recent.io/ http://recent.io/ uses in its pipeline, which is working very well in testing so far. More to the point, this looks like a perfectly decent story and an engaging read. The writer even managed to avoid being snarky about Samsung trying (sigh) to second-guess John Carmack!

ajmurmann 12y ago

"And I had argued for it a long time. I wrote so many of these multi-page emails about how important it was. But once we had it so people could see and see that it really does work, then Samsung went and wrote a proper interface for it." Wow, I really have to admire his patience. While reading this I was even thinking "They are arguing with John Carmack about what he needs to get the graphics right? Who do they think they are?!" and I am not him. I would never have the patience for this. That must be like my grandma arguing with me about programming.

fidotron 12y ago
I too admire his patience, but outside of the games and graphics industries and PC gaming community he is a relative obscurity. The other people involved are from other worlds with different idols.
- pyre 12y ago
  Surely he doesn't need to be an idol or hero to someone for his accomplishments and skills to be acknowledged.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    His largest achievements were years ago, though. Doom was one, Quake another, and Quake 3 probably the last big step. Afterwards, he hasn't distinguished himself so much (I don't think Rage was very impressive, for example), so unless you keep pushing the limits every single time, your reputation can fade quickly.
    - teamonkey 12y ago
      The Doom 3 engine was impressive at the time for its dynamic lighting and shadows. He also developed megatextures for Rage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        I don't know if you could the Doom 3 tech impressive - I always found that at the time, it looked like a dirty hack rather than being genuinely impressive. Later games with soft shadows looked much better. And for Rage I'm aware of the megatextures, but that looked horrible for anything that was close to you - again a failed tech. EDIT: interesting, getting downvoted because I wasn't impressed by Carmack's later productions?
        Negitivefrags 12y ago

dharma1 12y ago

so how do I create content for this thing? unity3d -> export to Android - or something else?

greyskull 12y ago

> Gear VR's been in development for around 1.5 years now Wow. That puts it not too long after the Oculus Rift kickstarter, which was in October 2012. I wonder how the Gear project came to start. Were there some graphics enthusiasts with moving power at Samsung that went "this. we need to get on this"?

iandanforth 12y ago

I truly do not understand this. Why would you want to dilute presence? Why would you want to create an expensive phone accessory when the hardware changes constantly and the software is extremely fragmented? There are plenty of scenarios where I can see usinga Rift, but very very few where I am 'mobile' and want to experience VR. Of those cases I can't see any where a dedicated and occasionally updated set of hardware isn't a better development experience than trying to deal with VR hassles on top of all the standard android ones. Please someone point out what Carmack gets here that eludes me.

readerrrr 12y ago
It is simple. The target Carmack is aiming for is mobile VR. Tethered experience is a necessary middle step. Oculus will release their version in the future and Gear allows him to develop the tech.
- mietek 12y ago
  You could say mobile VR is a necessary step towards AR (augmented reality). http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-hard-ar-anytime-soon/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/why-you-wont-see-hard-...
endergen 12y ago
Wireless for starters is just better and required for VR to rock, with the exception of seated experiences (racing, flight sims, mech games, etc) where presence is kept and you can benefit from a PCs far less limited GPU/CPU capabilities. Also they have a direct line with the phone manufacturer for the display technology and with this strategy of tying in with the mobile world, they can potentially get into a loop of rapidly updating hardware that's subsidized by phone contracts and the like. The limitations of mobile graphics can and will be solved in hardware and software. It may turn out for instance that something focused on high FPS and resolution can be achieved via low complexity shaders and some novel custom display/GPU hardware.
mkeblx 12y ago
It's less about the mobile as in using-while-walking-around than the ability to have with you wherever you're at and not tied down to the context of sitting in front of a PC. VR is for everywhere: the couch, the kitchen table, in class, at work, social gathering where you can easily share it, etc. The tether of the current dev kits actually takes away from presence. While there are hassles of VR with Android that were only solved by making deep changes to Android, the hassles of PC are greater. And this is a phone accessory that is specifically not designed for changing hardware and software: it only works with the Note 4 running a custom optimized version of Android. But they do agree with you that a dedicated unit is what they want to do as well which is why this is not their own consumer unit.

melling 12y ago

Why do we need to tether to a desktop for the extra power? Can't we create a wireless video standard to drive the VR headset?

TheCoreh 12y ago
I believe latency would not be acceptable with current wireless technology.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Wireless video can have approximately one millisecond latency today, I'm not sure how bad that would be wrt to things like nausea but it seems pretty short to me.
  - ctdonath 12y ago
    Article sez Carmack's first big fight was convincing Samsung that a two frame delay was too long. WAY too long. And it was important enough that he wrote an "obscene workaround" to avoid that "pretty short" latency. I've been casually following Carmack & Occulus for a while; recurring theme is "X ms delay is too long". IIRC (corrections please?), wasn't until latency got down to 20ms that the nausea etc subsided. That doesn't leave much room to both render a high-res complex image and display it by anything more than the shortest transmission time conceivable.
    - omellet 12y ago
      2 frames at 60Hz is about 33ms, which is way more than 1ms latency from a wireless hop.
      - ctdonath 12y ago
        Reconsider: 2 frames at 60Hz was an intolerable 33ms too long, he needed it down to 16ms total. Your optimistic 1ms latency cuts into that maximum refresh time by 7%, time that will (or is already) in high demand by meaningful/viable applications. You're also assuming a highly customized/optimized scenario for the wireless hop, nigh unto a straight analog signal. Digital processing will extend that, likely adding at least one full frame delay - again, something Carmack severely objected to and fought mightily against.

moron4hire 12y ago

So, I've been working on making it easy to make WebGL VR demos: https://github.com/capnmidnight/VR https://github.com/capnmidnight/VR

skizm 12y ago

2014 and there are still websites that auto start videos? At the bottom of the page no less? I pretty much ctrl+q out of fear at this point. Autoplaying videos = virus/phishing website in my head.

runeks 12y ago
You should enable click-to-play for Flash content in your browser. It both improves security and prevents auto starting videos.
- skizm 12y ago
  Nice, didn't know that existed. Thanks.

pimlottc 12y ago

I'm confused. I know Carmack joined Oculus, but what's this about Samsung? I take it they're working together now? It's still two different pieces of hardware, right? This article is leaving out some crucial context here.

Htsthbjig 12y ago
"but what's this about Samsung?" It is called "the screen". Samsumg manufactures(mass produces) the best screens in the world. Their OLED screens are the best quality, simple, lightweight and extremely fast response. Oculus needs Samsung screens. Samsumg needs oculus talent, so they are partners.
- pimlottc 12y ago
  Sure, I'm not saying it didn't make sense, just that the article didn't bother to explain it at all. If you start off by saying someone works for one company, then start going on about his doing stuff for another company, you ought to explain what the two of the have to do with each other.
wastedhours 12y ago
Yep. Gear VR is like a posh Google Cardboard with a Samsung Note 4 strapped to the front (a, probably, offensive oversimplification, it actually has tech in the headset, but it's just a face-holder for the phone), and the Oculus Developer Kit is the whole thing in one package that plugs in like a monitor to your computer.

yummybear 12y ago

Is there, currently, a way to put positional headtracking into a wireless device (without using a fixed camera)?

madgeeklabs 12y ago
Using the device camera together with Microsoft Photosynth technology would be viable. Maybe not in the time required to be confortable for the wearer of tbe VR set.