3 ms·

Good, reliable programmers are very expensive. Think $200k/year minimum. This might not have entered into your vision of reality but I assure you that's how i

Good, reliable programmers are very expensive. Think $200k/year minimum. This might not have entered into your vision of reality but I assure you that's how it works. If you keep getting shafted by cheap programming "talent" and keep looking for more, you might just be a fucking idiot.

tboxer854 17y ago
Lovely response. I never said I was getting shafted by cheap programming.
- californiaguy2 17y ago
  Sure you did, you mentioned elance didn't you?
  - mbrubeck 17y ago
    The direct quote was, "I know services like elance exist."
tsally 17y ago
If you keep getting shafted by cheap programming "talent" and keep looking for more, you might just be a fucking idiot. Swearing and making poor extrapolations off of a simple query doesn't make you cool. It actually makes you look like the idiot, not him.
- californiaguy2 17y ago
  I wasn't trying to be cool, I was answering his question in a straight forward and honest manner. Other people seem to be more interested in trying to blow smoke up his ass talking about interesting problem domains and how money doesn't matter.
  - astrec 17y ago
    I was actually replying to you, not him, with an observation drawn from my experience employing a great many programmers of differing ability, including perhaps half a dozen great programmers. In terms of great programmers, money is often subordinate to a great many other things, hence adjunct. Note I didn't say money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate by paraphrasing the conversations I have on occasion. Ordinary Programmer: I'm quitting. Me: Why? OP: I can get $15k more at X. Me: Will you stay if I match it? OP: Yes. Great Programmer: I'm quitting. Me: Why? GP: I've got a great opportunity to work over at X with Y doing Z. Me: Look, I can't afford to lose you: If it's a matter of money I'll match it. Me: Perhaps we can see how Z might work for us.... GP: Actually I'm pretty keen on working with Y. GP: It's not about the money, believe it or not I'm taking a bit of a cut. Me: I see. Is there anything I can do to make you stay? GP: Nope. Hey, once I'm settled in you should come and meet Y.
    - steverb 17y ago
      In my experience Option B above only occurs when leaving a lousy work place. I've done the same thing twice. But after about 2 years of not making money at the "great place to work" I end up having to move on to something that is also interesting, but actually pays. But then again, I never accept a counter offer. If I was worth 15k more to you, then why the hell weren't you paying that to start with? That just shows a lack of respect.
      - btilly 17y ago
        Absolutely don't accept counter offers. The main reason they are offered is so that the company can have you leave on their schedule, not yours. Even if this isn't their agenda, you've created a poisoned atmosphere which will make something you're unhappy with be even worse.
    - californiaguy2 17y ago
      It's really nice that you've found a few spineless coders to do work for you at a reduced rate because you cater to their egos - you are a superior businessman. In my opinion any "great" programmer will strike out on his own doing exactly what he wants to do before taking a pay cut to work with pet technology X at your shop. Especially if he knows you're on the internet bragging about how you pay them less than what they're really worth.
astrec 17y ago
Actually what you've just described is an expensive programmer, albeit not overly expensive. Great programmers tend to value other things such as working with other great programmers and a stimulating problem domain. The money tends to be an adjunct.
- californiaguy2 17y ago
  Anyone who claims that money is an adjunct and doesn't work in academia or charity is bullshitting not only who they're talking to, but themselves as well.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]

tboxer854 17y ago

Lovely response. I never said I was getting shafted by cheap programming.

californiaguy2 17y ago
Sure you did, you mentioned elance didn't you?
- mbrubeck 17y ago
  The direct quote was, "I know services like elance exist."

tsally 17y ago

If you keep getting shafted by cheap programming "talent" and keep looking for more, you might just be a fucking idiot. Swearing and making poor extrapolations off of a simple query doesn't make you cool. It actually makes you look like the idiot, not him.

californiaguy2 17y ago
I wasn't trying to be cool, I was answering his question in a straight forward and honest manner. Other people seem to be more interested in trying to blow smoke up his ass talking about interesting problem domains and how money doesn't matter.
- astrec 17y ago
  I was actually replying to you, not him, with an observation drawn from my experience employing a great many programmers of differing ability, including perhaps half a dozen great programmers. In terms of great programmers, money is often subordinate to a great many other things, hence adjunct. Note I didn't say money doesn't matter. Let me illustrate by paraphrasing the conversations I have on occasion. Ordinary Programmer: I'm quitting. Me: Why? OP: I can get $15k more at X. Me: Will you stay if I match it? OP: Yes. Great Programmer: I'm quitting. Me: Why? GP: I've got a great opportunity to work over at X with Y doing Z. Me: Look, I can't afford to lose you: If it's a matter of money I'll match it. Me: Perhaps we can see how Z might work for us.... GP: Actually I'm pretty keen on working with Y. GP: It's not about the money, believe it or not I'm taking a bit of a cut. Me: I see. Is there anything I can do to make you stay? GP: Nope. Hey, once I'm settled in you should come and meet Y.
  - steverb 17y ago
    In my experience Option B above only occurs when leaving a lousy work place. I've done the same thing twice. But after about 2 years of not making money at the "great place to work" I end up having to move on to something that is also interesting, but actually pays. But then again, I never accept a counter offer. If I was worth 15k more to you, then why the hell weren't you paying that to start with? That just shows a lack of respect.
    - btilly 17y ago
      Absolutely don't accept counter offers. The main reason they are offered is so that the company can have you leave on their schedule, not yours. Even if this isn't their agenda, you've created a poisoned atmosphere which will make something you're unhappy with be even worse.
  - californiaguy2 17y ago
    It's really nice that you've found a few spineless coders to do work for you at a reduced rate because you cater to their egos - you are a superior businessman. In my opinion any "great" programmer will strike out on his own doing exactly what he wants to do before taking a pay cut to work with pet technology X at your shop. Especially if he knows you're on the internet bragging about how you pay them less than what they're really worth.

astrec 17y ago

Actually what you've just described is an expensive programmer, albeit not overly expensive. Great programmers tend to value other things such as working with other great programmers and a stimulating problem domain. The money tends to be an adjunct.

californiaguy2 17y ago
Anyone who claims that money is an adjunct and doesn't work in academia or charity is bullshitting not only who they're talking to, but themselves as well.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]