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I asked Gruber specifically whether he approved, and he was VERY clear, he did not. It's therefore a dick move, period end. Voting me down doesn't change the

I asked Gruber specifically whether he approved, and he was VERY clear, he did not. It's therefore a dick move, period end. Voting me down doesn't change the fact that it's a dick move. The reason the team wants to use the Markdown name is because of the currency behind it. It's Gruber's currency.

rschuetzler 12y ago
They also want to use the name because their project directly comes from Markdown. And is a fully fleshed-out spec for Markdown that does not currently exist. And because it makes their project easily recognizable for what it is: a standard for Gruber's Markdown. They may very well end up changing the name, but that doesn't change the fact that this project is basically Markdown++.
- etchalon 12y ago
  And if it's any good, people will move on. Gruber's "Markdown" will disappear and everyone will talk about the "Markdown-influenced Textmarks." Everyone knows Linux was inspired heavily by UNIX, and yet, it's called Linux instead of "Standard UNIX".
aaronem 12y ago
That's nice. When I first encountered Markdown, almost a decade ago, I loved it. To say that I now hate it would be going a little bit far, but only a little; I'm awfully close to that. This change in opinion has occurred almost entirely because, every single time I encounter something that "accepts Markdown", I have to spend some time investigating its documentation to find out what ill-specified sui generis variation of Markdown it supports, and then, usually, also poke at the implementation in order to find out where it differs from the docs. Every single time. This would not happen if Markdown were well enough specified that developers could just drop in a parser library and be done. Gruber's currency? Everyone knows he invented Markdown. Everyone loves him for it. And everyone who has ever dealt with Markdown more than once knows that Gruber didn't take it far enough. He's had ten years in which to do so, and he hasn't done it. Now the community, led by Atwood et al., is acting to redress the lack. That Gruber should be upset by their calling their standardized Markdown "Standard Markdown", when he's had and squandered a decade in which to address the plainly evident need for that very thing, leaves me utterly unmoved. If it bothers him badly enough, let him sue! And we'll all see how well that works out for him. Otherwise, his "currency" would I think gain more from almost any other course of action than further prolonging the exercise in sour grapes which his Twitter appears to have become.
thristian 12y ago
If it's Gruber's currency, it's accumulated in spite of Gruber's best efforts to strangle that particular metaphorical revenue stream. If "Markdown" was just one ergonomic markup syntax among many, then yes, a hostile name-takeover would be completely a dick move. However, Markdown won; there's a bazillion slightly-incompatible implementations, and it's not Gruber's baby anymore. Hundreds if not thousands of people have invested a part of their life into Markdown, either by writing an implementation, using one in a larger product, or just taking the time to learn the syntax. While Gruber is the original creator of Markdown and deserves respect for that design achievement, the Markdown community is much, much larger than he is and when the two come into conflict, it's not surprising that Gruber loses.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
orf 12y ago
It's public currency. He hasn't touched the 'spec' in what, 10 years? We've moved on, he needs to as well.
- aaronem 12y ago
  Vanilla Markdown last versioned in December of 2004. He has moved on; it's just that, now that someone wants to pick up the baton he discarded so long ago, he's fussed about someone else getting the benefit of what has heretofore served him as a neat, low-effort little generator of social-marketing capital. I might even have some sympathy for that perspective, if not for the fact that his disinterest in doing anything with Markdown has resulted in such a broad range of subtly incompatible forks, thus complicating many people's lives, mine included, for what strikes me as frankly no good reason at all. Let him sue, if he likes, or let him keep unfavorably impressing people with public bitching and moaning -- or let him do the sensible thing, if he hasn't yet entirely foreclosed that possibility, and try to walk back his recent bitter outbursts in favor of a public opinion on the lines of "I sure wish I'd had the time to do this sort of thing before now! But I'm glad to see such a strong community carrying forward the idea I came up with so long ago." But to leave Markdown in the dust for a decade, then get all grabby again all of a sudden for what look more and more like the most transparently shallow of reasons, is just churlish.
- etchalon 12y ago
  Has it occurred to you he hasn't touched the spec because he believes it doesn't NEED to be touched? That others disagree is not an argument for his having abandoned his ownership or rights to the name.
  - orf 12y ago
    He can believe that it doesn't need to be touched all he likes, it doesn't change the fact that it does. The many subtly incompatible forks dealing with Markdowns ambiguities attest to that. Want to write some Markdown? Do you use vanilla markdown, github markdown, stackoverflow markdown, PHP markdown, a markdown parser with extensions? What we don't need is yet another fork but a standard. Gruber doesn't want to step up to the plate? Fine. The community will. Gruber doesn't like the name? Deal with it.
verisimilitude 12y ago
"the currency behind it" seems to be everything about this. These identical actions, under a different name that neither included nor winkingly referred to Markdown, would neither bother Gruber NOR provoke any community reaction. It is an odd situation. "New syntax, new name. That’s all I ask." https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 Regarding the name: "It more than just suggests control, it asserts control." https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507557595906052096 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507557595906052096

rschuetzler 12y ago

They also want to use the name because their project directly comes from Markdown. And is a fully fleshed-out spec for Markdown that does not currently exist. And because it makes their project easily recognizable for what it is: a standard for Gruber's Markdown. They may very well end up changing the name, but that doesn't change the fact that this project is basically Markdown++.

etchalon 12y ago
And if it's any good, people will move on. Gruber's "Markdown" will disappear and everyone will talk about the "Markdown-influenced Textmarks." Everyone knows Linux was inspired heavily by UNIX, and yet, it's called Linux instead of "Standard UNIX".

aaronem 12y ago

That's nice. When I first encountered Markdown, almost a decade ago, I loved it. To say that I now hate it would be going a little bit far, but only a little; I'm awfully close to that. This change in opinion has occurred almost entirely because, every single time I encounter something that "accepts Markdown", I have to spend some time investigating its documentation to find out what ill-specified sui generis variation of Markdown it supports, and then, usually, also poke at the implementation in order to find out where it differs from the docs. Every single time. This would not happen if Markdown were well enough specified that developers could just drop in a parser library and be done. Gruber's currency? Everyone knows he invented Markdown. Everyone loves him for it. And everyone who has ever dealt with Markdown more than once knows that Gruber didn't take it far enough. He's had ten years in which to do so, and he hasn't done it. Now the community, led by Atwood et al., is acting to redress the lack. That Gruber should be upset by their calling their standardized Markdown "Standard Markdown", when he's had and squandered a decade in which to address the plainly evident need for that very thing, leaves me utterly unmoved. If it bothers him badly enough, let him sue! And we'll all see how well that works out for him. Otherwise, his "currency" would I think gain more from almost any other course of action than further prolonging the exercise in sour grapes which his Twitter appears to have become.

thristian 12y ago

If it's Gruber's currency, it's accumulated in spite of Gruber's best efforts to strangle that particular metaphorical revenue stream. If "Markdown" was just one ergonomic markup syntax among many, then yes, a hostile name-takeover would be completely a dick move. However, Markdown won; there's a bazillion slightly-incompatible implementations, and it's not Gruber's baby anymore. Hundreds if not thousands of people have invested a part of their life into Markdown, either by writing an implementation, using one in a larger product, or just taking the time to learn the syntax. While Gruber is the original creator of Markdown and deserves respect for that design achievement, the Markdown community is much, much larger than he is and when the two come into conflict, it's not surprising that Gruber loses.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

orf 12y ago

It's public currency. He hasn't touched the 'spec' in what, 10 years? We've moved on, he needs to as well.

aaronem 12y ago
Vanilla Markdown last versioned in December of 2004. He has moved on; it's just that, now that someone wants to pick up the baton he discarded so long ago, he's fussed about someone else getting the benefit of what has heretofore served him as a neat, low-effort little generator of social-marketing capital. I might even have some sympathy for that perspective, if not for the fact that his disinterest in doing anything with Markdown has resulted in such a broad range of subtly incompatible forks, thus complicating many people's lives, mine included, for what strikes me as frankly no good reason at all. Let him sue, if he likes, or let him keep unfavorably impressing people with public bitching and moaning -- or let him do the sensible thing, if he hasn't yet entirely foreclosed that possibility, and try to walk back his recent bitter outbursts in favor of a public opinion on the lines of "I sure wish I'd had the time to do this sort of thing before now! But I'm glad to see such a strong community carrying forward the idea I came up with so long ago." But to leave Markdown in the dust for a decade, then get all grabby again all of a sudden for what look more and more like the most transparently shallow of reasons, is just churlish.
etchalon 12y ago
Has it occurred to you he hasn't touched the spec because he believes it doesn't NEED to be touched? That others disagree is not an argument for his having abandoned his ownership or rights to the name.
- orf 12y ago
  He can believe that it doesn't need to be touched all he likes, it doesn't change the fact that it does. The many subtly incompatible forks dealing with Markdowns ambiguities attest to that. Want to write some Markdown? Do you use vanilla markdown, github markdown, stackoverflow markdown, PHP markdown, a markdown parser with extensions? What we don't need is yet another fork but a standard. Gruber doesn't want to step up to the plate? Fine. The community will. Gruber doesn't like the name? Deal with it.

verisimilitude 12y ago

"the currency behind it" seems to be everything about this. These identical actions, under a different name that neither included nor winkingly referred to Markdown, would neither bother Gruber NOR provoke any community reaction. It is an odd situation. "New syntax, new name. That’s all I ask." https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 Regarding the name: "It more than just suggests control, it asserts control." https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507557595906052096 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507557595906052096