4 ms·

This is a cool project, but considering how over-regulated banks are these days (at least in Europe) I think it's very unlikely that they would actually use thi

This is a cool project, but considering how over-regulated banks are these days (at least in Europe) I think it's very unlikely that they would actually use this. Most bank software is still written in Cobol code that they have invested four decades into and are now too afraid to rewrite or even touch. So, specifying the requirements for an interbank message system would probably take them a few years already, and implementing it in a "proper" way -i.e. confirming to all their regulatory requirements- would take ages (also, they will probably already have a system for this in place). That being said, I think for less regulated sectors of the industry this could be a very interesting project.

LinaLauneBaer 12y ago
I have worked for banks and data centers/bank service providers and have not seen a single line of Cobol but millions Java-LOC and REXX.
- ShortTimer 12y ago
  REXX was my first introduction to programming for a real production system (at a national bank). It was one of the few usually-available, general-purpose toolsets that you could pretty much rely on to be available for "hacking something together." Fond memories of my REXX days, although I shudder to think of going back..
twrkit 12y ago
I used to work for one of the megabanks. The majority of their credit card processing is written in Fortran and runs on 20-30+ yr old mainframes. They don't dare touch it. "If it ain't broke..." There are certain universities that teach Fortran specifically for companies like this; any student of Fortran has an automatic offer once they graduate.
- Ecio78 12y ago
  Are you sure it was Fortran and not Cobol? Normally Fortran was used for academic/math (ForTran stands for Formula Translation, Cobol in busines (Cobol stands for COmmon Business-Oriented Language).
  - JackFr 12y ago
    Fortran found its way into finance because it was the programming language taught to engineers in school. (These were real engineers -- software engineers hadn't been invented yet.) If you hired them to build computer systems you got systems in Fortran unless you specified otherwise.
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  How's the pay for Fortran programmers? Both Fortran and Cobol are capable, but unexciting, languages. I'd be OK working with either one if the pay was good and the employment guaranteed.
DCKing 12y ago
It's a really common misconception that "most bank software is still written in Cobol". Of course it varies from bank to bank, and of course there's still some legacy systems on Cobol. But many banks run primarily Java [1] in their backend. They have to: besides the fact that Java is a much more productive language than Cobol, it's the only way you can actually hire people nowadays! No bank running "most software" on Cobol is sustainable. The supposed fear to rewrite or touch simply isn't real either: if a bank does not understand and therefore care enough for "most" of its infrastructure, it isn't a sustainable bank either. These large corporations tend to be as conservative as you can get, but they are not totally oblivious. That doesn't mean there are some little used systems still running on ancient stuff. I once heard an anecdote (no way to verify if true) that the Dutch revenue service rehired 80 year olds because they were the only ones that understood how to program some of their old machines that were programmed using wires and knobs. The financial services market was the first market that was primarily an IT market, and a lot of infrastructure was built up on stuff that is totally unfamiliar nowadays. There are places that will pay you a lot of money for programming in an ancient language. [1]: It's interesting to think that Java will be the Cobol of next few decades. Although I've seen signs that Scala and even Clojure are entering the banking world as well, which is encouraging.
JoelJacobson 12y ago
Author here. Interesting thoughts, I agree most banks won't change because they don't even think they have a problem. Although there are a few modern banks who actually do use Linux, PostgreSQL and modern programming languages (not COBOL). :-) I've addressed many of your thoughts in this text: https://github.com/trustly/bankapi/blob/master/doc/rationale.md https://github.com/trustly/bankapi/blob/master/doc/rationale... I hope you will find it interesting.
runeks 12y ago
> This is a cool project, but considering how over-regulated banks are these days (at least in Europe) I think it's very unlikely that they would actually use this. According to Trustly themselves, it is used by 45 banks spread out over 7 EU countries (Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Estonia, Poland, Italy and Spain): https://trustly.com/en/#map-holder https://trustly.com/en/#map-holder
- chousuke 12y ago
  Huh. That seems to include all the (major?) banks in Finland. At least I don't know of a bank in Finland that isn't on that list.
  - runeks 12y ago
    I was surprised too. It includes the three largest banks in Denmark as well.

LinaLauneBaer 12y ago

I have worked for banks and data centers/bank service providers and have not seen a single line of Cobol but millions Java-LOC and REXX.

ShortTimer 12y ago
REXX was my first introduction to programming for a real production system (at a national bank). It was one of the few usually-available, general-purpose toolsets that you could pretty much rely on to be available for "hacking something together." Fond memories of my REXX days, although I shudder to think of going back..

twrkit 12y ago

I used to work for one of the megabanks. The majority of their credit card processing is written in Fortran and runs on 20-30+ yr old mainframes. They don't dare touch it. "If it ain't broke..." There are certain universities that teach Fortran specifically for companies like this; any student of Fortran has an automatic offer once they graduate.

Ecio78 12y ago
Are you sure it was Fortran and not Cobol? Normally Fortran was used for academic/math (ForTran stands for Formula Translation, Cobol in busines (Cobol stands for COmmon Business-Oriented Language).
- JackFr 12y ago
  Fortran found its way into finance because it was the programming language taught to engineers in school. (These were real engineers -- software engineers hadn't been invented yet.) If you hired them to build computer systems you got systems in Fortran unless you specified otherwise.
drivingmenuts 12y ago
How's the pay for Fortran programmers? Both Fortran and Cobol are capable, but unexciting, languages. I'd be OK working with either one if the pay was good and the employment guaranteed.

DCKing 12y ago

It's a really common misconception that "most bank software is still written in Cobol". Of course it varies from bank to bank, and of course there's still some legacy systems on Cobol. But many banks run primarily Java [1] in their backend. They have to: besides the fact that Java is a much more productive language than Cobol, it's the only way you can actually hire people nowadays! No bank running "most software" on Cobol is sustainable. The supposed fear to rewrite or touch simply isn't real either: if a bank does not understand and therefore care enough for "most" of its infrastructure, it isn't a sustainable bank either. These large corporations tend to be as conservative as you can get, but they are not totally oblivious. That doesn't mean there are some little used systems still running on ancient stuff. I once heard an anecdote (no way to verify if true) that the Dutch revenue service rehired 80 year olds because they were the only ones that understood how to program some of their old machines that were programmed using wires and knobs. The financial services market was the first market that was primarily an IT market, and a lot of infrastructure was built up on stuff that is totally unfamiliar nowadays. There are places that will pay you a lot of money for programming in an ancient language. [1]: It's interesting to think that Java will be the Cobol of next few decades. Although I've seen signs that Scala and even Clojure are entering the banking world as well, which is encouraging.

JoelJacobson 12y ago

Author here. Interesting thoughts, I agree most banks won't change because they don't even think they have a problem. Although there are a few modern banks who actually do use Linux, PostgreSQL and modern programming languages (not COBOL). :-) I've addressed many of your thoughts in this text: https://github.com/trustly/bankapi/blob/master/doc/rationale.md https://github.com/trustly/bankapi/blob/master/doc/rationale... I hope you will find it interesting.

runeks 12y ago

> This is a cool project, but considering how over-regulated banks are these days (at least in Europe) I think it's very unlikely that they would actually use this. According to Trustly themselves, it is used by 45 banks spread out over 7 EU countries (Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Estonia, Poland, Italy and Spain): https://trustly.com/en/#map-holder https://trustly.com/en/#map-holder

chousuke 12y ago
Huh. That seems to include all the (major?) banks in Finland. At least I don't know of a bank in Finland that isn't on that list.
- runeks 12y ago
  I was surprised too. It includes the three largest banks in Denmark as well.