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<em>Markdown is a popular language with an ambiguous, poorly specified spec and buggy default implementation...</em> That never hurt Perl... :-) Sorry, couldn'
by tjradcliffe 12y ago
<em>Markdown is a popular language with an ambiguous, poorly specified spec and buggy default implementation...</em>
That never hurt Perl... :-) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Your sentiments are well-taken.
No one "owns" Markdown, and quibbling over words is unproductive.
There is a concept: "a simple in-line markup language that is easy to write and maps clearly to HTML". One instance of that concept is a specific, buggy, ill-defined language called "Markdown".
"Standard Markdown" is another instance of the same concept. This is the way English works: adding modifiers to words that designate one instance of a concept to designate other instances of the same concept.
Getting to an EBNF grammar from the spec would be awesome, but the spec is a great place to start. All spec generation is tendentious, and it is common to have multiple people highly invested in the generation of different specs for the same nominal standard. Politics, as Aristotle tells us, is the master art. This is why.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- djrogers 12y ago"This is the way English works: adding modifiers to words that designate one instance of a concept to designate other instances of the same concept." So you think anyone would think it was totally cool if someone released things called 'Standard Excel' and 'Standard MacOS'? That wouldn't get by without criticism, why should this?
- deong 12y agoI think you can draw an analogy to trademark law here. I know we're not talking about anyone registering trademarks and suing each other here, but when it's good, law tends to reflect common practice, and I think trademark law actually does that pretty well. I think most reasonable people look at the way trademark law treats issues like this as being more or less how they think the issue should be treated. That is to say, you can't really spend a decade or two letting "Markdown" sort of mean whatever people want it to mean, and only then cry foul for the N+1 person to use the term. "Excel" and "MacOS" have not been genericized (is that a word?) to the same extent that "Markdown" has.
- djrogers 12y agoIt's right in the darned license for markdown: "Neither the name “Markdown” nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission." Legalities aside, this is a dick move that goes directly against the license. As for your genericization argument, what do you think are the first 2 results in Google for markdown? And the wikipedia description (3rd result) includes both the syntax and the 'tool'. Popular != Generic
- deong 12y agoPopularity has no relationship with being generic. The classic case, Kleenex, has the entire first page of Google hits referring to the product of the same name, but it's still a generic mark now. Even if popularity did matter, Google isn't necessarily the best way of measuring that, and if forced to guess, I'd say the percentage of markdown files processed by Gruber's perl implementation is very small. Also, if the problem with "Standard Markdown" is the use of the term "Markdown", then the license is relevant. But that means that everyone else (Multi-markdown, Markdown Extra, Github-flavored Markdown, Python-flavored Markdown, Markdown Python, Markdown PHP, etc. are all equally guilty of a "dick move". I don't see anyone arguing that calling it "XXX Markdown" is a problem. It's calling it Standard Markdown that they have a problem with, and the license doesn't really address that without also addressing everything else. I do get the reaction to some degree. I would stop short of calling it a "dick move", but maybe it's a bit tone-deaf admittedly. I just think that the horse has left the barn on taking offense that someone implemented something sort of like what you called "Markdown" and called their version some form of "Markdown".
- tzs 12y ago> Also, if the problem with "Standard Markdown" is the use of the term "Markdown", then the license is relevant. But that means that everyone else (Multi-markdown, Markdown Extra, Github-flavored Markdown, Python-flavored Markdown, Markdown Python, Markdown PHP, etc. are all equally guilty of a "dick move". Gruber is OK with "Github flavored Markdown" because the name makes it sound like a fork. "Standard Markdown" does not sound like a fork. See my earlier comment in this thread for a cite to Gruber verifying that this is his problem with the name.
- dragonwriter 12y ago> So you think anyone would think it was totally cool if someone released things called 'Standard Excel' and 'Standard MacOS'? I don't think anyone would dispute that both Excel and MacOS are, in fact, trademarks established through bona fide use in commerce and which have not been genericized, and which, therefore, currently serve to clearly designate the origin of particular commercial products. I don't think the same consensus exists with Markdown. In fact, I suspect if there was a general consensus that "Markdown" had some clear meaning, whether or not it was to designate the original of a particular commercial product, the "Standard Markdown" project wouldn't exist.