8 ms·

This is really great, but I don’t understand why everything has been made privately. Following the first post [1], people were waiting for a move, and as far as

by bpierre 12y ago

This is really great, but I don’t understand why everything has been made privately. Following the first post [1], people were waiting for a move, and as far as I know, it was a complete silence during two years, not even a “we are working on it”. A Markdown Community Group [2] has been created on w3.org, and people have started to push some effort in it [3][4][5], but it has been totally ignored since the beginning, despite the communication attempts. Maybe I don’t have all the informations, but it looks like a waste to me, and I find it disrespectful for the people who worked on the project. All of this could have easily been avoided with a simple communication about the status of the project. [1] http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-future-of-markdown/ [2] http://www.w3.org/community/markdown/ http://www.w3.org/community/markdown/ [3] http://www.w3.org/community/markdown/wiki/Main_Page http://www.w3.org/community/markdown/wiki/Main_Page [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-markdown/2014Mar/0000.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-markdown/2014Mar/... [5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-markdown/2014Jul/0002.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-markdown/2014Jul/...

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
They've also unfairly appropriated the name "Markdown" and declared it "Standard", which Gruber is (rightly) not too happy with.[0][1] [0] https://twitter.com/justin/status/507304506007515136 https://twitter.com/justin/status/507304506007515136 [1] https://twitter.com/markdown/status/507341395137658880 https://twitter.com/markdown/status/507341395137658880
- joeblau 12y ago
  Ouch! He's defintely not happy, but I think there needs to be some more structure around the format. I love using Markdown, but it's annoying finding out what quirks work on different parsers. For example, GitHub supports hyperlinked images, but Designer New's comments don't. I think the spec has too many open ends and needs wrangling. I'm just not sure if this was the best way to go about doing it.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    I don't disagree. I think they shouldn't have called it "Standard Markdown", though, as that's appropriating it. "Community-flavoured Markdown" or something would be far better.
  - philoushka 12y ago
    Either way, they're forcing his hand. He's been sitting back while others have been simply trying to get a spec. If he wants to be grumpy, cool. GH, SO, and Reddit will forge on. If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on. Those 3 communities have large overlapping userbases. This baby is being born, Gruber or not, and nobody will remember in n years about the current kerfuffle.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      > Either way, they're forcing his hand. Which I think is good. Long overdue, maybe even. It's good something like Markdown exists, and it shouldn't have had to flourish despite not having an unambiguous formalized spec. > If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on. He's got nothing to litigate about. The trademark claim on "Markdown" had no place in his copyright license, nor does that copyright license affect this specifications project in any meaningful way (because they don't use the copyrighted work). That's why the only valid argument so far has been over the implications of the word "Standard" in "Standard Markdown" being a "dick move" (which is a personal POV, which is fine, which I also happen to disagree with).
    - tomjen3 12y ago
      >If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on That would be a quick way to shut it down. Just threaten to sue anybody who _implements_ it.
      - ojessen 12y ago
        And how would that work? Let's assume I wrote BrainFuckStandardMD, the implementation for Brainfuck. I would base it solely on the spec published as Common Markdown. I would not in any way use the copyrighted code as basis for my implementation, so it is not derived from it. I don't use the name markdown, so that even the ficticious claim to a trademark would be void. On what grounds would he sue me?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- sjwright 12y ago
  There was an obvious, demonstrable need out there for implementation consistency. Gruber didn't step up to help resolve confusions, so he has no right to complain when other people do the hard work.
  - sjwright 12y ago
    To the people voting down, please explain why you disagree. I am genuinely interested.
    - donatj 12y ago
      Well taking something someone else created and rereleasing it using relatively the same name while insinuating it's the official or standard version is what's known in the industry as a dick move. Imagine if you forked GTK and named it "Official GTK" and then blamed GTK for not doing what you wanted them to, so its obviously their fault that you needed to steal their name.
      - frowaway001 12y ago
        Eh what? It has been industry practice for the last ten years to implement a Markdown parser and call it "Something Markdown" or "Markdown Something". Standard Markdown is just that, it's Markdown but standardized. It's exactly the right name given what it does.
        ejr 12y ago
        "Standard" carries with it a significant heft in meaning, especially authority, that "Something" else is unlikely to carry. Authority that is illegitimate without the original author's involvement.
        frowaway001 12y ago
        I think the lack of the author's involvement in _anything_ in the last 10 years has cost him any authority he would have had. Some names are descriptive, some are prescriptive. Just deal with it.
- pyre 12y ago
  I can understand his point of view on the matter. He created something that is loved by millions, and he feels that this project is trying to wrestle ownership from him. On the other hand, he created something. He released it to the wild, and then he didn't aptly respond to the need for it to change. His response to "Markdown needs work" is basically "Whatever! It's my project, you're not the boss of me!" How can he seriously be shocked that people would go around him to try and develop a spec that made more sense? As to using "Standard" in the name, if Reddit, StackExchange, and Github all agree to use this Markdown spec, I think that there could be a reasonable argument that it is standard. In reality, they are wrestling ownership of Markdown away from Gruber. In a couple of years Gruber's Markdown will probably only be useful for historical purposes. Why? Because he failed to respond to the real needs of his users, so those users with the largest stake took matters into their own hands.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    He's not shocked, he's upset something is calling itself "Standard Markdown" yet he, the creator of Markdown, did not have any involvement. There's nothing wrong with making a standard, just don't appropriate the name.
    - yxhuvud 12y ago
      But he was asked to participate and didn't want to. It is not as if they did the work in secret.
      - c1sc0 12y ago
        And that's his good right. Calling it "Standard Markdown" when he explicitly chose not to participate is just as childish a move as this: http://www.notmarkdown.com http://www.notmarkdown.com
      - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
        It doesn't matter that he was asked to participate and didn't want to. What matters is whether he did or didn't give specific written permission that they could use the name Markdown. It's set in stone on the license.
burntsushi 12y ago
I think you make an excellent and valid point. On the flip side, developing a spec---for something as popular and accessible as Markdown---out in the open is an extraordinarily difficult task. I think one can definitely make a case for it being the right thing to do (and I mean that in more than just the ethical sense), but I also think one can make a reasonable case for not wanting to travel down that road either. I think it can be so difficult that there would be a very real possibility that it would never get completed. (I'm sincerely not trying to be combative. I know I'm not really addressing your point---that they didn't even provide a status update---but I just wanted to provide a tiny perspective on the other side of the coin.)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- canadev 12y ago
  I definitely see your point of view. Design by committee is enough to wear down the most passionate person. However, maybe they could have said a simple "We're actually working on a spec and two portable implementations (JS, C) based on the original article," and that might have gone a long way to prevent people from wasting their time.
- neves 12y ago
  But they tried to contact the guy and never obtained an answer. I'd vote to call it MarkAbove!
8ig8 12y ago
Goddammit, let's all take a vacation.
ansgri 12y ago
Since when competition has become disrespectful? This is simply a degree of fault tolerance, ensuring that at least one of the two working groups would succeed.
cirosantilli 12y ago
I can't understand why private either. Asked Atwood directly at: http://talk.standardmarkdown.com/t/markdown-test-suites/158/3?u=cirosantilli http://talk.standardmarkdown.com/t/markdown-test-suites/158/..., let's see what he replies.

by bpierre 12y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago

They've also unfairly appropriated the name "Markdown" and declared it "Standard", which Gruber is (rightly) not too happy with.[0][1] [0] https://twitter.com/justin/status/507304506007515136 https://twitter.com/justin/status/507304506007515136 [1] https://twitter.com/markdown/status/507341395137658880 https://twitter.com/markdown/status/507341395137658880

joeblau 12y ago
Ouch! He's defintely not happy, but I think there needs to be some more structure around the format. I love using Markdown, but it's annoying finding out what quirks work on different parsers. For example, GitHub supports hyperlinked images, but Designer New's comments don't. I think the spec has too many open ends and needs wrangling. I'm just not sure if this was the best way to go about doing it.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  I don't disagree. I think they shouldn't have called it "Standard Markdown", though, as that's appropriating it. "Community-flavoured Markdown" or something would be far better.
- philoushka 12y ago
  Either way, they're forcing his hand. He's been sitting back while others have been simply trying to get a spec. If he wants to be grumpy, cool. GH, SO, and Reddit will forge on. If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on. Those 3 communities have large overlapping userbases. This baby is being born, Gruber or not, and nobody will remember in n years about the current kerfuffle.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    > Either way, they're forcing his hand. Which I think is good. Long overdue, maybe even. It's good something like Markdown exists, and it shouldn't have had to flourish despite not having an unambiguous formalized spec. > If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on. He's got nothing to litigate about. The trademark claim on "Markdown" had no place in his copyright license, nor does that copyright license affect this specifications project in any meaningful way (because they don't use the copyrighted work). That's why the only valid argument so far has been over the implications of the word "Standard" in "Standard Markdown" being a "dick move" (which is a personal POV, which is fine, which I also happen to disagree with).
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    >If we wants to litigate, cool too; bring it on That would be a quick way to shut it down. Just threaten to sue anybody who _implements_ it.
    - ojessen 12y ago
      And how would that work? Let's assume I wrote BrainFuckStandardMD, the implementation for Brainfuck. I would base it solely on the spec published as Common Markdown. I would not in any way use the copyrighted code as basis for my implementation, so it is not derived from it. I don't use the name markdown, so that even the ficticious claim to a trademark would be void. On what grounds would he sue me?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
sjwright 12y ago
There was an obvious, demonstrable need out there for implementation consistency. Gruber didn't step up to help resolve confusions, so he has no right to complain when other people do the hard work.
- sjwright 12y ago
  To the people voting down, please explain why you disagree. I am genuinely interested.
  - donatj 12y ago
    Well taking something someone else created and rereleasing it using relatively the same name while insinuating it's the official or standard version is what's known in the industry as a dick move. Imagine if you forked GTK and named it "Official GTK" and then blamed GTK for not doing what you wanted them to, so its obviously their fault that you needed to steal their name.
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      Eh what? It has been industry practice for the last ten years to implement a Markdown parser and call it "Something Markdown" or "Markdown Something". Standard Markdown is just that, it's Markdown but standardized. It's exactly the right name given what it does.
      - ejr 12y ago
        "Standard" carries with it a significant heft in meaning, especially authority, that "Something" else is unlikely to carry. Authority that is illegitimate without the original author's involvement.
        frowaway001 12y ago
        I think the lack of the author's involvement in _anything_ in the last 10 years has cost him any authority he would have had. Some names are descriptive, some are prescriptive. Just deal with it.
pyre 12y ago
I can understand his point of view on the matter. He created something that is loved by millions, and he feels that this project is trying to wrestle ownership from him. On the other hand, he created something. He released it to the wild, and then he didn't aptly respond to the need for it to change. His response to "Markdown needs work" is basically "Whatever! It's my project, you're not the boss of me!" How can he seriously be shocked that people would go around him to try and develop a spec that made more sense? As to using "Standard" in the name, if Reddit, StackExchange, and Github all agree to use this Markdown spec, I think that there could be a reasonable argument that it is standard. In reality, they are wrestling ownership of Markdown away from Gruber. In a couple of years Gruber's Markdown will probably only be useful for historical purposes. Why? Because he failed to respond to the real needs of his users, so those users with the largest stake took matters into their own hands.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  He's not shocked, he's upset something is calling itself "Standard Markdown" yet he, the creator of Markdown, did not have any involvement. There's nothing wrong with making a standard, just don't appropriate the name.
  - yxhuvud 12y ago
    But he was asked to participate and didn't want to. It is not as if they did the work in secret.
    - c1sc0 12y ago
      And that's his good right. Calling it "Standard Markdown" when he explicitly chose not to participate is just as childish a move as this: http://www.notmarkdown.com http://www.notmarkdown.com
    - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
      It doesn't matter that he was asked to participate and didn't want to. What matters is whether he did or didn't give specific written permission that they could use the name Markdown. It's set in stone on the license.

burntsushi 12y ago

I think you make an excellent and valid point. On the flip side, developing a spec---for something as popular and accessible as Markdown---out in the open is an extraordinarily difficult task. I think one can definitely make a case for it being the right thing to do (and I mean that in more than just the ethical sense), but I also think one can make a reasonable case for not wanting to travel down that road either. I think it can be so difficult that there would be a very real possibility that it would never get completed. (I'm sincerely not trying to be combative. I know I'm not really addressing your point---that they didn't even provide a status update---but I just wanted to provide a tiny perspective on the other side of the coin.)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
canadev 12y ago
I definitely see your point of view. Design by committee is enough to wear down the most passionate person. However, maybe they could have said a simple "We're actually working on a spec and two portable implementations (JS, C) based on the original article," and that might have gone a long way to prevent people from wasting their time.
neves 12y ago
But they tried to contact the guy and never obtained an answer. I'd vote to call it MarkAbove!

8ig8 12y ago

Goddammit, let's all take a vacation.

ansgri 12y ago

Since when competition has become disrespectful? This is simply a degree of fault tolerance, ensuring that at least one of the two working groups would succeed.

cirosantilli 12y ago

I can't understand why private either. Asked Atwood directly at: http://talk.standardmarkdown.com/t/markdown-test-suites/158/3?u=cirosantilli http://talk.standardmarkdown.com/t/markdown-test-suites/158/..., let's see what he replies.