12 ms·

>Somehow Europe, Canada, Japan, etc, all make health care work but we can't. The countries you mentioned largely have outsourced their national defence concern

>Somehow Europe, Canada, Japan, etc, all make health care work but we can't. The countries you mentioned largely have outsourced their national defence concerns to the United States, allowing them to have defence budgets of <10% of spending while the USA's defence spending stands at 17% of spending. That is not irrelevant to this discussion.

jazzyk 12y ago
What does national defense cost have to do with it? France, ranked consistently as one of the countries with the best health-care, spends 12% vs the US (ranked waaay lower) spending 18%. Several other countries have even better quality-to-cost ratios (Japan, etc)
- jamesash 12y ago
  >What does national defense cost have to do with it? Uh, more headroom for entitlement programs in general? I see France at 10%, not 12%,http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_de_l'État_français http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_de_l'État_français but even at the latter number, that 6% difference (280 bn) would pay for a quarter of Medicare+Medicaid. With Medicaid costs set to expand by 12% under Obamacare next year (by 50 bn) eventually leading to 50% reduction in uninsured by 2024, having that kind of room in the budget would easily allow for universal coverage. I cede the point, made above, that dollar-for-dollar US healthcare spending is less effective, but dispute that health care reform is entirely about making it more efficient. Decreasing the amount of uninsured has been at least as important an issue in the debate.
  - jazzyk 12y ago
    The only sustainable way to insure everyone is to lower the cost of healthcare. My insurance premium went up 15% since Obamacare was introduced (as opposed to "mere" 11% in previous years). I don;t know what I am going to do next year. This flies in the face of the claims that "if everyone pays in, it will be cheaper for everyone". Not happening. I agree that having universal coverage is great (and long overdue), but there are much better ways of achieving it.
PeterisP 12y ago
Amount of money going to healthcare is actually NOT relevant to this discussion - all the countries are spending less on healthcare than USA, none of those health advantages are caused by being able to afford healthcare because of some or other reason reason. The call for health reforms isn't "give medicine more money", but "fix the system so that you stop getting shit priced as gold".
- jamesash 12y ago
  Point taken on lower efficiency of US health care spending. http://www.vox.com/2014/9/2/6089693/health-care-facts-whats-wrong-american-insurance http://www.vox.com/2014/9/2/6089693/health-care-facts-whats-... Worth noting, however, that Europe, Canada, and the ROW get to freeload on innovative on-patent medicines whose R&D is essentially supported by higher American drug prices.

jazzyk 12y ago

What does national defense cost have to do with it? France, ranked consistently as one of the countries with the best health-care, spends 12% vs the US (ranked waaay lower) spending 18%. Several other countries have even better quality-to-cost ratios (Japan, etc)

jamesash 12y ago
>What does national defense cost have to do with it? Uh, more headroom for entitlement programs in general? I see France at 10%, not 12%,http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_de_l'État_français http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_de_l'État_français but even at the latter number, that 6% difference (280 bn) would pay for a quarter of Medicare+Medicaid. With Medicaid costs set to expand by 12% under Obamacare next year (by 50 bn) eventually leading to 50% reduction in uninsured by 2024, having that kind of room in the budget would easily allow for universal coverage. I cede the point, made above, that dollar-for-dollar US healthcare spending is less effective, but dispute that health care reform is entirely about making it more efficient. Decreasing the amount of uninsured has been at least as important an issue in the debate.
- jazzyk 12y ago
  The only sustainable way to insure everyone is to lower the cost of healthcare. My insurance premium went up 15% since Obamacare was introduced (as opposed to "mere" 11% in previous years). I don;t know what I am going to do next year. This flies in the face of the claims that "if everyone pays in, it will be cheaper for everyone". Not happening. I agree that having universal coverage is great (and long overdue), but there are much better ways of achieving it.

PeterisP 12y ago

Amount of money going to healthcare is actually NOT relevant to this discussion - all the countries are spending less on healthcare than USA, none of those health advantages are caused by being able to afford healthcare because of some or other reason reason. The call for health reforms isn't "give medicine more money", but "fix the system so that you stop getting shit priced as gold".

jamesash 12y ago
Point taken on lower efficiency of US health care spending. http://www.vox.com/2014/9/2/6089693/health-care-facts-whats-wrong-american-insurance http://www.vox.com/2014/9/2/6089693/health-care-facts-whats-... Worth noting, however, that Europe, Canada, and the ROW get to freeload on innovative on-patent medicines whose R&D is essentially supported by higher American drug prices.