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Here is the basic problem. When you build a product for savvy people, your interests are aligned. Savvy people will only pay you money when you build a good pro

Here is the basic problem. When you build a product for savvy people, your interests are aligned. Savvy people will only pay you money when you build a good product. Thus, the only way you can make money is by actually doing good, by creating a product useful to other people. This is the happy coincidence that draws so many to entrepreneurship - we get to build things, create value, and get paid $$$. When you build a product for less than savvy people, the easiest way to make money is by tricking them. Even if if you do not want to play dirty, you will be driven out of the market by people who do. You will be competing against people who make something look like a great deal (no down payment, zero percent APR!) but where it turns out the customer is getting screwed in the long term. You might want to sell a fair product, but since you are selling to less than savvy people, they ignore your product and buy the product that is tricking them, that looks like a better deal than it is. When less savvy people buy good products, it's usually products that are being passed on via reputation by the more savvy set. Thus if you want to build good products for the underclass, build it first for savvy upper-middle class people, and if it is good, it will eventually filter down, like email, smart phones, and a hundred other technologies have.

Retric 12y ago
It's not that it's easier to make money scamming poor people. It's just easier to make money scamming people period. Rich people and poor people tend to fall for the exact same scams. The Vast majority of VC's are really running get quick scams to separate people / institutions with money from it. And if you dig into it so is much of the banking sector. EX: Morgage backed security's are really AAA. See savings and loan crisis part 237: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis Yes, the banking sector collapsed twice in 15 years, look out 2020. Or roll back to the stock market crash of 1973-74 where the dow lost over 45% of its value. Followed by 14% annual inflation! Budweiser is a classic example of non scam product targeting that demographic. And there plenty of others. Just think bingo card creator not twitter.
- pastProlog 12y ago
  > The Vast majority of VC's are really running get quick scams to separate people / institutions with money from it. What you're saying is a calumny against VC's. VC's have helped create plenty of businesses and assets that investors value and have poured money into - like the whole Bitcoin ecosphere. Why, I have heard the top VC's, angels, and even YCombinator high mucky mucks raving about Bitcoin. If people listened to you, they might not pour their money into such valuable assets like Bitcoins.
  - klochner 12y ago
    Was that sarcasm?
- gohrt 12y ago
  Budweiser is swill that passes for beer in the USA, because it is cheaper than what most of the world recognizes as beer -- until savvy people made microbrews popular in USA, and they are not in grocery stores.
  - lambdaphage 12y ago
    http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/10/in-praise-of-budweiser-contains-extended-footnotes/ http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/10/in-praise-of-budweiser-c...
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    You're being downvoted because America produces plenty of fine beer domestically, not just microbrews but major brands like Samuel Adams as well.
    - obvious_throw 12y ago
      The Boston Beer Company (maker of Samuel Adams) is still technically a craft/micro brewery, since they produce (intentionally) less than 6 million barrels annually. The entire craft brew industry produces less than 8% of all domestic beer. Calling Sam Adams a "major brand" is a bit of a stretch.
idlewords 12y ago
Your assume that poor people are poor because they lack the savvy to be born into the upper middle class. That's a common misconception. Poor people are actually poor because they don't have any money. The easiest way to make money is not by tricking the poor, but by tricking the rich (they're the ones who have most of it, after all). Unfortunately, that same money allows even the dumbest rich people to aggressively defend their interests against savvy people like you. While no one gives fuck all about the poor.
- rattray 12y ago
  > no one gives fuck all about the poor. That's blatantly untrue. People care. Ask yourself; how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not wish a better life on poor people. But solving their problems is intimidating, difficult, and probably unprofitable. If the true problem is that poor people are poor because they don't have any money, the obvious solution is to give them money (eg; EITC, UBI, free healthcare, free education etc). If all people have money -- and if you're correct that savviness doesn't really play into it -- all people will have companies trying to solve their problems. I think Silicon Valley needs to wake up to the fact that some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    > some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance. And here you run up against a religious belief named "The Government Is The Problem", which is utterly intractable and ineradicable in someone with an advanced case, and will never die off because it's founded on either blatant self-interest (A regulatory body is harming my profits!) or soured optimism (I thought everything was perfect until the scales fell from my eyes! Now I think everything is perfectly horrible!). It's related to cynicism, which has posed as maturity for so long some people honestly cannot tell the difference.
    - rattray 12y ago
spitfire 12y ago
I disagree. There's a lot of pain that you can solve in everyday peoples' lives that people could create businesses around. Look at patio11. He builds appointment reminders. Can you believe that's a real feed-your-family business? It is. Here's what I think he was getting at. Build a solution to problems normal people have. An example of this: A jobs site that works for everyday people. IE: Monster.com that doesn't suck. There's all sorts of developer rank and 37signals job boards for you to go to if you're one of the supermen(women). But if you're a normal person, There should be.
ForHackernews 12y ago
I don't think your first paragraph is true. Plenty of companies targeting savvy (read: up-market) consumers still use "dark patterns" to try and trick them or rip them off: Free trials that bill you unless you cancel, opt-out special fees, shady marketing that borders on spam. Honestly, when I think of the things I regularly spend money on, there are precious few where I feel "This is a great product that I am happy to support" much more common is the feeling "Well, I really need X, and they're the only ones that make an even halfway acceptable X." or "I guess Y is okay, but it's overpriced for what it does."

Retric 12y ago

It's not that it's easier to make money scamming poor people. It's just easier to make money scamming people period. Rich people and poor people tend to fall for the exact same scams. The Vast majority of VC's are really running get quick scams to separate people / institutions with money from it. And if you dig into it so is much of the banking sector. EX: Morgage backed security's are really AAA. See savings and loan crisis part 237: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis Yes, the banking sector collapsed twice in 15 years, look out 2020. Or roll back to the stock market crash of 1973-74 where the dow lost over 45% of its value. Followed by 14% annual inflation! Budweiser is a classic example of non scam product targeting that demographic. And there plenty of others. Just think bingo card creator not twitter.

pastProlog 12y ago
> The Vast majority of VC's are really running get quick scams to separate people / institutions with money from it. What you're saying is a calumny against VC's. VC's have helped create plenty of businesses and assets that investors value and have poured money into - like the whole Bitcoin ecosphere. Why, I have heard the top VC's, angels, and even YCombinator high mucky mucks raving about Bitcoin. If people listened to you, they might not pour their money into such valuable assets like Bitcoins.
- klochner 12y ago
  Was that sarcasm?
gohrt 12y ago
Budweiser is swill that passes for beer in the USA, because it is cheaper than what most of the world recognizes as beer -- until savvy people made microbrews popular in USA, and they are not in grocery stores.
- lambdaphage 12y ago
  http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/10/in-praise-of-budweiser-contains-extended-footnotes/ http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/10/in-praise-of-budweiser-c...
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  You're being downvoted because America produces plenty of fine beer domestically, not just microbrews but major brands like Samuel Adams as well.
  - obvious_throw 12y ago
    The Boston Beer Company (maker of Samuel Adams) is still technically a craft/micro brewery, since they produce (intentionally) less than 6 million barrels annually. The entire craft brew industry produces less than 8% of all domestic beer. Calling Sam Adams a "major brand" is a bit of a stretch.

idlewords 12y ago

Your assume that poor people are poor because they lack the savvy to be born into the upper middle class. That's a common misconception. Poor people are actually poor because they don't have any money. The easiest way to make money is not by tricking the poor, but by tricking the rich (they're the ones who have most of it, after all). Unfortunately, that same money allows even the dumbest rich people to aggressively defend their interests against savvy people like you. While no one gives fuck all about the poor.

rattray 12y ago
> no one gives fuck all about the poor. That's blatantly untrue. People care. Ask yourself; how many of your friends "don't give fuck all about the poor"? I find it hard to believe that a majority of people would not wish a better life on poor people. But solving their problems is intimidating, difficult, and probably unprofitable. If the true problem is that poor people are poor because they don't have any money, the obvious solution is to give them money (eg; EITC, UBI, free healthcare, free education etc). If all people have money -- and if you're correct that savviness doesn't really play into it -- all people will have companies trying to solve their problems. I think Silicon Valley needs to wake up to the fact that some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  > some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance. And here you run up against a religious belief named "The Government Is The Problem", which is utterly intractable and ineradicable in someone with an advanced case, and will never die off because it's founded on either blatant self-interest (A regulatory body is harming my profits!) or soured optimism (I thought everything was perfect until the scales fell from my eyes! Now I think everything is perfectly horrible!). It's related to cynicism, which has posed as maturity for so long some people honestly cannot tell the difference.
  - rattray 12y ago

spitfire 12y ago

I disagree. There's a lot of pain that you can solve in everyday peoples' lives that people could create businesses around. Look at patio11. He builds appointment reminders. Can you believe that's a real feed-your-family business? It is. Here's what I think he was getting at. Build a solution to problems normal people have. An example of this: A jobs site that works for everyday people. IE: Monster.com that doesn't suck. There's all sorts of developer rank and 37signals job boards for you to go to if you're one of the supermen(women). But if you're a normal person, There should be.

ForHackernews 12y ago

I don't think your first paragraph is true. Plenty of companies targeting savvy (read: up-market) consumers still use "dark patterns" to try and trick them or rip them off: Free trials that bill you unless you cancel, opt-out special fees, shady marketing that borders on spam. Honestly, when I think of the things I regularly spend money on, there are precious few where I feel "This is a great product that I am happy to support" much more common is the feeling "Well, I really need X, and they're the only ones that make an even halfway acceptable X." or "I guess Y is okay, but it's overpriced for what it does."