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Teacher certification is vitally important: it props up teacher wages. Oh, did anyone think it had another purpose? Education is a funny field. When you test

by thras 17y ago

Teacher certification is vitally important: it props up teacher wages. Oh, did anyone think it had another purpose? Education is a funny field. When you test the IQ of people by university subject, you generally find that the hard sciences have the highest IQs (physics and math at the top) followed by the social sciences followed by the artsy stuff. Education is at the very bottom. However, in every field but education, you find that people with PhDs are smarter than the people with Master's who tend to be smarter than people with just BS or BA degrees. Education is the only field where this is reversed. The people with PhDs are the dumbest of the lot. I heard a funny story once about someone who cheated on his teacher certification exam. He had failed twice and was about to lose his job. So he paid a homeless person to take the test for him. They only caught the cheater because the homeless guy scored better than anyone else in the district and officials got curious about the improvement.

eru 17y ago
Sources?
- req2 17y ago
  Robin Hanson has some citations in this post: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/econ-neglects-licensing.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/econ-neglects-licensin...
nazgulnarsil 17y ago
rant warning I may get voted down simply for using loaded phrases, but stepping around them would be laborious. the largest labor unions in the US (Teachers, AMA, etc) operate off a marxist labor theory. this is completely fucking ridiculous considering the average education level of these organization's members. how long is it going to take basic econ to sink into the general knowledge base of humanity? the world seems completely mired in mid 19th century economic thought. If we can't at least get to the level of understanding marginal utility it is going to kill us. More modern economic theories are paid lip service to in the form of being implemented whenever doing so is politically expedient. This is the polar opposite of the spirit of econ. An economist by definition looks past the consequences that are of immediate concern to the public/political body. OTOH: massive tech improvements causing changes to society will probably hit before we WWIII ourselves with our economic ignorance so all the angst may be for nothing. that is if economic ignorance doesn't (continue to) severely hamper technological improvements to the point that we fall short of saving ourselves from ourselves.
cglee 17y ago
I don't find the IQ correlation that important, to be honest. What makes a good educator? Is it the ability to process IQ-type problems? Or is it more tied to some other attribute not measured by IQ, say, emphasizing with students? (I have no clue, just saying that IQ may or may not be the end all be all for educators).
- singlow 17y ago
  I think it really depends on the subject being taught. I had an eighth grade Algebra teacher who could barely do the problems herself. She could empathize with the student pretty well, especially when neither of them could figure out how the get the answer in the key.
  - lief79 17y ago
    It's possible to teach a subject while not being an expert. That's where a good teacher pulls them in and helps teach the students how to learn on their own. That being said, this requires a teacher who is at least as intelligent as their students. Apparently my grandfather ended up teaching a course he was taking while in the military. He was able to teach it better than whomever was originally assigned as the teacher.
  - MaysonL 17y ago
    * when neither of them could figure out how the get the answer in the key.* It's possible that the answer in the key was wrong. I spent a few years volunteering for RFBD.org, reading math & science textbooks a few hours a week, and many of the texts had answers in the back which frequently were not for the question in the front.
    - singlow 17y ago
      Unfortunately that was not the case. She just had to rely on the smarter students to help her. Then they hired us (woohoo 4.15/hr) to come tutor the algebra class after school three times a week while we were in high school. Almost every algebra student came to the tutoring session most of the time. The teacher never showed up once.
kingkawn 17y ago
"When you test the IQ of people by university subject, you generally find that the hard sciences have the highest IQs (physics and math at the top) followed by the social sciences followed by the artsy stuff." "[T]he artsy stuff?" Another good indicator of high IQ is not being completely dismissive of things that you have no experience in. Try it out.
- unalone 17y ago
  HN has a lot of biases. We're more economically conservative than average, much more pro-motivation, and there's a lot of contempt for the arts here. It's a shame, since otherwise this is a terrific community.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    Its interesting how differently people see things. I would consider We're more economically conservative than average, much more pro-motivation, to be positives. I do agree that a genuine contempt for the arts is a bad thing, but I haven't seen a ton of that.
    - unalone 17y ago
      I like having good arguments on both sides. I'm not saying that pro-motivation or pro-conservation is bad, because it's not. At the same time, I've got a lot of friends on both extremes of the economic argument, both anarchosocialist and Objectivist-libertarian, and I think there's a lot of value to be had by arguing both sides. Similarly, the calmer life philosophies that are less about motivation and more about contentment aren't thrown about as much here, and so sometimes conversations seem a bit lopsided.
  - kingkawn 17y ago
    I'm not advocating just for the arts specifically, but rather for a degree of thoughtfulness, stemming from the belief that; 1. Education is valuable 2. You likely do not fully appreciate the complexity and beauty of areas that you have not studied at all. Many outside this community are dismissive of mathematics, and they would be just as wrong.
jrwoodruff 17y ago
Props up wages? I doubt that. Average K-12 salary: 40-45,000 according to PayScale (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary). At least here in Michigan and Ohio, there's far more teachers than there are teaching jobs.
- TomOfTTB 17y ago
  That's misleading. First it takes into account places in the Country where the cost of living is very low (and hence the salaries are as well). Second it's an average which is a big deal in an industry where half the members quit after 5 years (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05...). So half your employees are at the lowest level at any given time. Third it doesn't account for the other benefits. Every teacher belongs to a union which means full benefits (medical, dental, vision) and a generous pension/401(k) matching program Finally, you have to take into account the hours. School hours are generally 8a to 2p with an hour lunch. Teachers get a prep period so they don't have to stay late and they often get contract pay for most extra curricular activities (coaching sports for example). So even if you take the 45,000 a year number (which is again low) divide it by 180 school days a year and then 6 hours a day you get an hourly wage of $41.66 (The equivalent of $86,652 per year in a normal job)
  - akeefer 17y ago
    Um, I'm not entirely sure why you think teachers only work 6 hours a day. I know a few high school teachers, and between lesson prep, grading, meeting with parents, etc. they work way, way more than 40 hours a week.
    - TomOfTTB 17y ago
      I have to call Bulls*t on that. Again, they have a prep period to do things in. That's 5 hours a week for grading, lesson prep etc... (and the reality is most teachers get their lesson plans off one of the hundreds of web sites that provide that service now days). As for meeting with parents, last I checked that doesn't happen too often. My parents never met any of my High School teachers. It may very well be 7 or 8 hours a day. I'd concede that's possible. But over 40 hours a week? That (including the prep period) would be nearly 14 hours a week devoted to grading papers. I just don't think so. Edit: Thinking a little more on this. Average Class Size in California is about 23 students per teacher (http://www.laalmanac.com/education/ed09.htm http://www.laalmanac.com/education/ed09.htm). Lets assume 2 assignments per week and just to make it fair lets assume they're typed essay based assignments (that the teacher has to read through and grade rather than multiple choice). A teacher has 5 periods so that's about 115 students or 230 assignments per week. The average words per typed page is about 600 and the average adult reads 250wpm (http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-the-Average-Reading-Speed-and-the-Best-Rate-of-Reading?&id=2298503 http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-the-Average-Reading-Speed-...). Even under that heavy workload you're only looking at about 9 hours worth to grade it all and honestly that's with an unrealistic workload. No teacher assigns two full page typed essays every week.

by thras 17y ago

eru 17y ago

Sources?

req2 17y ago
Robin Hanson has some citations in this post: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/econ-neglects-licensing.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/econ-neglects-licensin...

nazgulnarsil 17y ago

rant warning I may get voted down simply for using loaded phrases, but stepping around them would be laborious. the largest labor unions in the US (Teachers, AMA, etc) operate off a marxist labor theory. this is completely fucking ridiculous considering the average education level of these organization's members. how long is it going to take basic econ to sink into the general knowledge base of humanity? the world seems completely mired in mid 19th century economic thought. If we can't at least get to the level of understanding marginal utility it is going to kill us. More modern economic theories are paid lip service to in the form of being implemented whenever doing so is politically expedient. This is the polar opposite of the spirit of econ. An economist by definition looks past the consequences that are of immediate concern to the public/political body. OTOH: massive tech improvements causing changes to society will probably hit before we WWIII ourselves with our economic ignorance so all the angst may be for nothing. that is if economic ignorance doesn't (continue to) severely hamper technological improvements to the point that we fall short of saving ourselves from ourselves.

cglee 17y ago

I don't find the IQ correlation that important, to be honest. What makes a good educator? Is it the ability to process IQ-type problems? Or is it more tied to some other attribute not measured by IQ, say, emphasizing with students? (I have no clue, just saying that IQ may or may not be the end all be all for educators).

singlow 17y ago
I think it really depends on the subject being taught. I had an eighth grade Algebra teacher who could barely do the problems herself. She could empathize with the student pretty well, especially when neither of them could figure out how the get the answer in the key.
- lief79 17y ago
  It's possible to teach a subject while not being an expert. That's where a good teacher pulls them in and helps teach the students how to learn on their own. That being said, this requires a teacher who is at least as intelligent as their students. Apparently my grandfather ended up teaching a course he was taking while in the military. He was able to teach it better than whomever was originally assigned as the teacher.
- MaysonL 17y ago
  * when neither of them could figure out how the get the answer in the key.* It's possible that the answer in the key was wrong. I spent a few years volunteering for RFBD.org, reading math & science textbooks a few hours a week, and many of the texts had answers in the back which frequently were not for the question in the front.
  - singlow 17y ago
    Unfortunately that was not the case. She just had to rely on the smarter students to help her. Then they hired us (woohoo 4.15/hr) to come tutor the algebra class after school three times a week while we were in high school. Almost every algebra student came to the tutoring session most of the time. The teacher never showed up once.

kingkawn 17y ago

"When you test the IQ of people by university subject, you generally find that the hard sciences have the highest IQs (physics and math at the top) followed by the social sciences followed by the artsy stuff." "[T]he artsy stuff?" Another good indicator of high IQ is not being completely dismissive of things that you have no experience in. Try it out.

unalone 17y ago
HN has a lot of biases. We're more economically conservative than average, much more pro-motivation, and there's a lot of contempt for the arts here. It's a shame, since otherwise this is a terrific community.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  Its interesting how differently people see things. I would consider We're more economically conservative than average, much more pro-motivation, to be positives. I do agree that a genuine contempt for the arts is a bad thing, but I haven't seen a ton of that.
  - unalone 17y ago
    I like having good arguments on both sides. I'm not saying that pro-motivation or pro-conservation is bad, because it's not. At the same time, I've got a lot of friends on both extremes of the economic argument, both anarchosocialist and Objectivist-libertarian, and I think there's a lot of value to be had by arguing both sides. Similarly, the calmer life philosophies that are less about motivation and more about contentment aren't thrown about as much here, and so sometimes conversations seem a bit lopsided.
- kingkawn 17y ago
  I'm not advocating just for the arts specifically, but rather for a degree of thoughtfulness, stemming from the belief that; 1. Education is valuable 2. You likely do not fully appreciate the complexity and beauty of areas that you have not studied at all. Many outside this community are dismissive of mathematics, and they would be just as wrong.

jrwoodruff 17y ago

Props up wages? I doubt that. Average K-12 salary: 40-45,000 according to PayScale (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary). At least here in Michigan and Ohio, there's far more teachers than there are teaching jobs.

TomOfTTB 17y ago
That's misleading. First it takes into account places in the Country where the cost of living is very low (and hence the salaries are as well). Second it's an average which is a big deal in an industry where half the members quit after 5 years (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/08/AR2006050801344.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05...). So half your employees are at the lowest level at any given time. Third it doesn't account for the other benefits. Every teacher belongs to a union which means full benefits (medical, dental, vision) and a generous pension/401(k) matching program Finally, you have to take into account the hours. School hours are generally 8a to 2p with an hour lunch. Teachers get a prep period so they don't have to stay late and they often get contract pay for most extra curricular activities (coaching sports for example). So even if you take the 45,000 a year number (which is again low) divide it by 180 school days a year and then 6 hours a day you get an hourly wage of $41.66 (The equivalent of $86,652 per year in a normal job)
- akeefer 17y ago
  Um, I'm not entirely sure why you think teachers only work 6 hours a day. I know a few high school teachers, and between lesson prep, grading, meeting with parents, etc. they work way, way more than 40 hours a week.
  - TomOfTTB 17y ago
    I have to call Bulls*t on that. Again, they have a prep period to do things in. That's 5 hours a week for grading, lesson prep etc... (and the reality is most teachers get their lesson plans off one of the hundreds of web sites that provide that service now days). As for meeting with parents, last I checked that doesn't happen too often. My parents never met any of my High School teachers. It may very well be 7 or 8 hours a day. I'd concede that's possible. But over 40 hours a week? That (including the prep period) would be nearly 14 hours a week devoted to grading papers. I just don't think so. Edit: Thinking a little more on this. Average Class Size in California is about 23 students per teacher (http://www.laalmanac.com/education/ed09.htm http://www.laalmanac.com/education/ed09.htm). Lets assume 2 assignments per week and just to make it fair lets assume they're typed essay based assignments (that the teacher has to read through and grade rather than multiple choice). A teacher has 5 periods so that's about 115 students or 230 assignments per week. The average words per typed page is about 600 and the average adult reads 250wpm (http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-the-Average-Reading-Speed-and-the-Best-Rate-of-Reading?&id=2298503 http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-the-Average-Reading-Speed-...). Even under that heavy workload you're only looking at about 9 hours worth to grade it all and honestly that's with an unrealistic workload. No teacher assigns two full page typed essays every week.