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OK, there's some value in diversifying instead of using one provider for everything but mostly he just swapped Apple, Fastmail, or Clicky in place of Google. Th

OK, there's some value in diversifying instead of using one provider for everything but mostly he just swapped Apple, Fastmail, or Clicky in place of Google. They can still track him, read his email, know his calendar... The benefit here is marginal. And how do those companies stack up against Google when it comes to security? It's one thing to protect the data against snooping by the provider, it's anoter to protect it from everyone else. Google is pretty solid, often on the cutting edge (PFS, certificate pinning).

oconnore 12y ago
The difference between data privacy now, and data privacy 10 or 20 years ago has little to do with how many people have access to it, or how secure it is. It mostly has to do with who can analyze it. An example: where you walk in public is public information, but for most of human history, no one has had the capability to keep a database of that information and query it retroactively. Your location information is therefore less private now than it was before, because that information used to be impossible to reference meaningfully. The same concept goes for email, calendars, contact graphs, etc. Using providers that don't have, or consciously avoid the capability to aggregate, analyze, and query it improves your privacy. Google is not one of those providers.
- lallysingh 12y ago
  is Apple?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - theshrike79 12y ago
    Apple's business model doesn't rely on storing personal information, they get their money from devices and apps and services made for those devices sold through their store. They are the one company that has the ability to really push for user privacy, it's a route Google cannot follow - it would hurt their core business (advertising) too much.
    - danieldk 12y ago
      They are the one company that has the ability to really push for user privacy, it's a route Google cannot follow - it would hurt their core business (advertising) too much. On the other hand, Google needs their users to trust them. If they walk away from Google services, Google loses. If Apple on the other hand, loses an iCloud customer, their lock-in is reduced, but probably the user will continue to use their Apple devices. In the end, paid services are probably the best for users who want privacy, etc. Losing trust immediately results in a loss of income. But since the user is paying, they don't have to use and link user data for advertisement or sell the data to third parties.
      - r00fus 12y ago
        > On the other hand, Google needs their users to trust them. If they walk away from Google services, Google loses. Google has dominance in search, webmail, maps, and a very strong mobile presence with Android. Even if you don't trust Google, it's hard to avoid using their services - they're so good, they have few competitors worthy of note (e.g. Apple Maps or Bing).
- imgabe 12y ago
  Ok, say someone has a complete database of my location sampled at 10 minute intervals over the past few years. What could they do with that information that would be harmful to me?
  - CapitalistCartr 12y ago
    Seriously? Now I know everyone with whom you associate. I know everything you like to do. I know how fast you drive. Because you "associated" with several serious felons (you were in the same bar/diner/club as them several times), I can make a case for conspiracy. I have you in the same area as several serious crimes. Perhaps the data source (phone?) isn't exact all the time (it never is), so I have you as being at some places you weren't at. The scene of crimes? I know everyplace you've been for years, so forget running. Have you been speeding in the past few years? A lot? Have you done anything private? Seen doctors/specialists about private medical issues? Have you had an abusive spouse or stalker in your life? I bet they'd love the data.
    - imgabe 12y ago
      Do you seriously believe that's how conspiracy cases work? "They were in the same restaurant several times, they must be involved in a criminal conspiracy". I guess every waiter, cook, hostess is also indicted for conspiracy as well, if that's all the evidence they need. Google doesn't issue speeding tickets. If the government were to issue a ticket for every single instance of speeding and even 1% of them contested it, the system would be so clogged with paperwork that it would grind to a complete halt. Personally, no I haven't been to the doctor. People go to doctors, though. That's not a big secret. Are you personally on the lookout for every single person who visits a doctor so you can...make fun of them, I guess? Do you imagine other people are? An abusive spouse/stalker already knows where you live. If they're that motivated and want to find you, they'll wait outside your house. Hiding the information is not a solution to that problem, those people need to be arrested and incarcerated.
      - gwern 12y ago
        > Do you seriously believe that's how conspiracy cases work? "They were in the same restaurant several times, they must be involved in a criminal conspiracy". I guess every waiter, cook, hostess is also indicted for conspiracy as well, if that's all the evidence they need. I think you need to read up on the 'domestic terrorism' cases in the USA and how NSA investigations actually proceed. One fun instance was Clapper giving presentations on a network of possible terrorists all linked together. The link was a pizza place.
throwawayaway 12y ago
Does Clicky let site viewers also view the traffic? I don't mind such information as much so long as everyone knows that they can see it when they want.

oconnore 12y ago

The difference between data privacy now, and data privacy 10 or 20 years ago has little to do with how many people have access to it, or how secure it is. It mostly has to do with who can analyze it. An example: where you walk in public is public information, but for most of human history, no one has had the capability to keep a database of that information and query it retroactively. Your location information is therefore less private now than it was before, because that information used to be impossible to reference meaningfully. The same concept goes for email, calendars, contact graphs, etc. Using providers that don't have, or consciously avoid the capability to aggregate, analyze, and query it improves your privacy. Google is not one of those providers.

lallysingh 12y ago
is Apple?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- theshrike79 12y ago
  Apple's business model doesn't rely on storing personal information, they get their money from devices and apps and services made for those devices sold through their store. They are the one company that has the ability to really push for user privacy, it's a route Google cannot follow - it would hurt their core business (advertising) too much.
  - danieldk 12y ago
    They are the one company that has the ability to really push for user privacy, it's a route Google cannot follow - it would hurt their core business (advertising) too much. On the other hand, Google needs their users to trust them. If they walk away from Google services, Google loses. If Apple on the other hand, loses an iCloud customer, their lock-in is reduced, but probably the user will continue to use their Apple devices. In the end, paid services are probably the best for users who want privacy, etc. Losing trust immediately results in a loss of income. But since the user is paying, they don't have to use and link user data for advertisement or sell the data to third parties.
    - r00fus 12y ago
      > On the other hand, Google needs their users to trust them. If they walk away from Google services, Google loses. Google has dominance in search, webmail, maps, and a very strong mobile presence with Android. Even if you don't trust Google, it's hard to avoid using their services - they're so good, they have few competitors worthy of note (e.g. Apple Maps or Bing).
imgabe 12y ago
Ok, say someone has a complete database of my location sampled at 10 minute intervals over the past few years. What could they do with that information that would be harmful to me?
- CapitalistCartr 12y ago
  Seriously? Now I know everyone with whom you associate. I know everything you like to do. I know how fast you drive. Because you "associated" with several serious felons (you were in the same bar/diner/club as them several times), I can make a case for conspiracy. I have you in the same area as several serious crimes. Perhaps the data source (phone?) isn't exact all the time (it never is), so I have you as being at some places you weren't at. The scene of crimes? I know everyplace you've been for years, so forget running. Have you been speeding in the past few years? A lot? Have you done anything private? Seen doctors/specialists about private medical issues? Have you had an abusive spouse or stalker in your life? I bet they'd love the data.
  - imgabe 12y ago
    Do you seriously believe that's how conspiracy cases work? "They were in the same restaurant several times, they must be involved in a criminal conspiracy". I guess every waiter, cook, hostess is also indicted for conspiracy as well, if that's all the evidence they need. Google doesn't issue speeding tickets. If the government were to issue a ticket for every single instance of speeding and even 1% of them contested it, the system would be so clogged with paperwork that it would grind to a complete halt. Personally, no I haven't been to the doctor. People go to doctors, though. That's not a big secret. Are you personally on the lookout for every single person who visits a doctor so you can...make fun of them, I guess? Do you imagine other people are? An abusive spouse/stalker already knows where you live. If they're that motivated and want to find you, they'll wait outside your house. Hiding the information is not a solution to that problem, those people need to be arrested and incarcerated.
    - gwern 12y ago
      > Do you seriously believe that's how conspiracy cases work? "They were in the same restaurant several times, they must be involved in a criminal conspiracy". I guess every waiter, cook, hostess is also indicted for conspiracy as well, if that's all the evidence they need. I think you need to read up on the 'domestic terrorism' cases in the USA and how NSA investigations actually proceed. One fun instance was Clapper giving presentations on a network of possible terrorists all linked together. The link was a pizza place.

throwawayaway 12y ago

Does Clicky let site viewers also view the traffic? I don't mind such information as much so long as everyone knows that they can see it when they want.