14 ms·

Failing the startup game at Unbabel

• ehurrell 12y ago
  I have to say I admire your courage in writing this. I've been put in a not dissimilar situation in the recent past. I said nothing. I'm hoping one day the situation will resolve itself, but I doubt it, and I suffered a lot for it. Thankfully I'm out of immediate danger now. I hope this leads to a positive conclusion for you, as I have a lot of respect for the difficulty of startup life, but none for those who behave dishonestly rather than face the consequences of their actions.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    Thanks. At this point this isn't about me anymore, it's about transparency and telling both sides of the story. In my opinion Unbabel behaved like total jerks and were getting away with it. I'm getting to old to let stuff like that slip anymore.
• BSousa 12y ago
  I feel sorry for you, I really do! Not knowing the details of your contract I can't say for sure, but with the recent changes in employment law in Portugal, I think legally (not ethically) they maybe in the right. I can put you in contact with a lawyer that specialises in this kind of situations, but honestly, for 1.5 months salary, it isn't probably worth it for you (justice system in PT is very very slow, though they do tend to stick with the employee in these situations, even when the law isn't on their side). If you don't mind me asking, what made you move from Sweden to Portugal to work at this startup? Was it Portugal that attracted you? Knowing the salaries and economic situation of the country, specially compared to Sweden, it confuses me a bit why you would do it, but if it is Portugal as a country that interests you, shoot me an email, I maybe able to help you out. Best of luck
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    I only learned about the loop hole in Portuguese employment law from this discussion. That's one thing I really hated about Portugal, they just don't offer any information in English, even the signs in the museums are in Portuguese, it's no mystery to me that a lot of the translation startups are based there. The thing is, were I come from, if you have a contract for three months, you have a contract for three months. And I was treated like royalty up until the exact moment when I didn't agree with their practices. Live and learn, I guess. Unbabel is unique in that it's based in SF and offer compensation on that level in Portugal. Landing a job in SF is pretty much impossible as a European so this seemed like a nice compromise. Thanks, but from the experience I had with both my employer and my landlord in Portugal I'd rather not do business with any Portuguese people ever again. Sorry. Thanks!
    • BrotherBrax 12y ago
      What loophole? It's not something missing in the law, it is very well detailed in the law (see links in a previous post of mine, or from some other posters as well). Swedish contract law also seems to have trial periods, BTW: http://www.business-sweden.se/PageFiles/10381/Employing%20staff%20-%20contracts%20and%20conditions.pdf http://www.business-sweden.se/PageFiles/10381/Employing%20st... In Sweden it seems that the employer must always give two weeks of notice, that's not the case here. But on the other hand you were paid two extra weeks of wage. I know for a fact that Luxembourg, UK, and Bulgaria at least have trial periods as well and they are typical in these countries. I don't know about other EU countries, nor do I know whether they are typical in Sweden. But they are certainly not loopholes. (BTW my apologies if I sound blunt, I love my country and don't like seeing false statements posted which make it seem that working here is very bad, when the truth is quite the opposite -- after the trial period is over, you are very well protected and can expect a job for life unless the company goes bust, goes through a major layoff, or fires you illegally, in which case courts and unions will defend you) BTW here in Portugal you can also have a 3-month contract. They are uncommon in the IT world, but they exist especially in less well-paid positions (supermarkets, call centers, etc). In that case the trial period cannot exceed 15 days. If your contract says "com termo certo" (meaning "with predetermined duration"), then you did have a 3 month contract and are entitled to legal action. Have you tried translating the contract on Google or Bing to understand what it says?
• god_bless_texas 12y ago
  I'm sure there are two sides to every story, but you can guarantee that if they did this to you they'll do it to someone else. I'm consistently amazed by people and companies who operate without integrity. I think about Paul Graham talking about startup founder factors as people who break the rules. I'm fairly certain this is not what he's talking about.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    On the other hand, and this is really the point of the whole thing to me, maybe next time they'll think twice.
• troels 12y ago
  After one month of insanity and abuse I was called to a Friday afternoon meeting with the founders. They told me that they felt that we had a difference in style and that they didn't want me to work there anymore. Just like that, no further explanation. A bit curd perhaps, but following the rest of the story I suppose it makes sense? This sounds very much like a culture misfit to me. (To be clear: I am not passing any judgement on the handling of the matter here. Or on who to blame on the misfitting)
• homakov 12y ago
  37 old Java professional from Sweden spends all of his savings in two months? You have 5 kids or something?
  • jacquesm 12y ago
    Or maybe just not a lot of savings.
    • homakov 12y ago
      Or maybe he wants his story to sound more dramatic >So here I am, back where I started with barely enough money to eat. Come on, you're 37 years old Java professional from Sweden (which is not Nigeria or something). Even unemployed people there get more money which I used to make being programmer. > When I informed my landlord that I wouldn't be able to stay as long as planned she kicked me out of the apartment What, she kicked you even before your paid period? Obviously you're loosing your deposit but she is not supposed to kick you out. This story made to sound dramatic, but in reality, I believe, he just wants unbabel's managers to follow contract rules. Unbabel is wrong, but it's not a reason to say you're starving and it's their fault. You're a grown up man, be responsible for your life.
      • yuribit 12y ago
        Completely agree, where are all the money you earned in the last 16 years?
        • BSousa 12y ago
          Knowing Sweden... in taxes
        • TomGullen 12y ago
          Who cares? He can spend it how he wishes, doesn't detract from the mistreatment he is claiming in any way.
        • emil0r 12y ago
• onion2k 12y ago
  A really big problem for startups lies in attracting high quality coding talent. There aren't many experienced developers who're in a position to take the necessary risk joining a startup and working for a reduced income for a while. Consequently any startup that screws over a developer isn't just hurting their own rep, but they're damaging the chance of success of every other startup by reducing the size of the talent pool. Whether or not Unbabel did something wrong here is a matter of speculation without more details, but there's still a lesson in it for every startup founder - developers are necessary and important to your success so being nice (especially if the relationship isn't going well) is a Good Idea.
  • TomGullen 12y ago
    > there's still a lesson in it for every startup founder - developers are necessary and important to your success so being nice (especially if the relationship isn't going well) is a Good Idea. If a founder is only being nice to someone because it's a good idea and in their interest, they are an asshole. It's not a lesson you should need to teach anyone.
    • onion2k 12y ago
      The lesson is that it's hard to find good developers. More generally, it's quite hard to find good <anythings>. People assume that available talent fits some sort of bell curve, with lots of 'average' people out there, but really it's more like an inverse square curve - there's a lot more people at the bottom end than the top. When you find the good ones you're nice to them because it's in everyone's interest.
      • TomGullen 12y ago
        > When you find the good ones you're nice to them because it's in everyone's interest. Why do you have to differentiate being nice to people based on their abilities in any way at all? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?
        • 12y ago
• andystannard 12y ago
  Hi I think they are legally able to do this from my understanding of EU law. It sucks especially if you have had to relocate for the job but you obviously were not enjoying working for them. It sounds as if the lead dev might be feeling overprotective of his own work and does not want to let go. I am sure you will find another job easily enough as good devs are in demand. Hopefully at a place where you are valued and can contribute your skills
  • richardwhiuk 12y ago
    If the contract has a minimum period, then they have to show ' cause' when firing someone. Not being a good fit won't be good enough. If it was, the minimum period in a contract wouldn't be worth anything as that's easy for an employer to say with no backup. This issue is a major difference between typical contracts in the EU and the at will employment status which is typical in the US. It makes it 'easier' for startups to operate in the US, and means that international companies will hire slower in the EU, but are more likely to let US staff go if they have to change staffing levels quickly. Depending on the rental contract - if it's anything like the UK, the author may have a cause of action against the landlord as well - normally there's a minimum notice period.
    • DanBC 12y ago
      > Depending on the rental contract - if it's anything like the UK, the author may have a cause of action against the landlord as well - normally there's a minimum notice period. "kicked out" could include "followed all the legal procedures and evicted me".
      • andreasgonewild 12y ago
        That's not really what happened though. I had a contract for a minimum of four months on the apartment. Which wouldn't have been a problem for me even if I quit after three months. I deposited the last months rent when I signed the contract. When I informed the landlord that I could only stay two months, she kept the deposit and forced me to leave the apartment in the middle of the second month.
• TomGullen 12y ago
  Now we wait and see how skilled they are at an apologising. (If true).
• malanj 12y ago
  It seems that given Andreas' move to join the startup - if his explanation is accurate and complete - the level of responsibility of the founders does increase. I've been a founder asking people to move before and I've always felt that it adds a significant extra responsibility. You need to be quite a lot more certain it'll be a good fit before asking someone to move to join your company. In my mind "culture fit" is the responsibility of the founder. If you're recruiting someone, you need to make the call if they fit into your culture. You can't really blame the person you're recruiting for not fitting in. You can (and should) fire them if they're not a fit, but it's still your hiring mistake, and you need to take the responsibility for it. If a mudslinging contest can somehow be avoided, it'll be great to have a response from the Unbabel founders. There are probably some good lessons for both coders and founders here.
  • jacquesm 12y ago
    > I've been a founder asking people to move before and I've always felt that it adds a significant extra responsibility. Exactly. If you ask people to do things outside the normal employment environment then you are partly responsible to make them whole if thing do not work out. And if you can't do that then don't get people to move halfway across the continent for you, especially not without doing more work to see if there is a good fit or not.
    • tomp 12y ago
      If I was hiring developers, I wouldn't care much where they come from - if someone from Sweden wants to come to Portugal, I wouldn't stop them, but on the other hand I wouldn't give them extra assistance/benefits just because they're relocating (assuming that (1) there was enough local talent available, and (2) the company was a startup, not an established company with loads of cash). On the other hand, if I was hiring developers, I would stick to the contract.
  • bhouston 12y ago
    As a company founder, I have never had someone move to take a job at my company. The reasons are #1, it is a lot more expensive to hire because most people want you to cover moving costs, and #2, if the person doesn't work out during the three months probationary period (this is standard in Ontario, Canada) I would be screwing them over if I laid them off (and if I didn't lay them off, it would be screwing over the company.) If we had more robust hiring practices, and more money, maybe it would be better. But for now hiring out of town while requiring them to move (as opposed to working remotely, which has worked for employees) is horribly risky for all involved.
• jacquesm 12y ago
  There is a 60 day period in which you can be let go without further notice ('trial period') so legally they are in the right, but morally, after letting you move from one country to another and without in any way assisting you in cushioning the blow they are jerks (assuming this one-sided view is the unvarnished truth). But better that you are out of there now than a year down the line, if they are like this then that saved you a bunch of time and a lot more hardship.
• linker3000 12y ago
  I feel for you too. It wasn't a startup and the job was local, but I took a salary drop and swapped a cosy-but-unrewarding role with a global corporate to join a 40-strong SaaS development company that wanted someone to come in and sort out their internal and customer support infrastructure - they had no strategy, procedures or hierarchy and were constantly firefighting - shuffling resources between projects according to which customer complained the loudest. It became clear very quickly that the two founders who brought me in wouldn't embrace any change that didn't come from them, and they had a total fear of empowering anyone else to make executive decisions - even about their own team members; I constantly found my guys being assigned to firefighting for other teams without my knowledge, so workload planning and scheduling knowledge sharing periods was impossible - we had information silos all over the place and if someone went on vacation they would often be called or emailed frequently because they were the only ones who knew about a specific part of a project or system. I wasn't allowed to attend support review meetings with the customers - the Directors went alone and told me what had been agreed, and they constantly dealt directly with one of my guys (the company 'guru'), assigning him work and making it impossible for me to grab his time so he could share his skills with the rest of the team - I highlighted it as a serious business risk that this guy was the only person who knew some of the tricks with some of our internal and customer infrastructures, and that he wasn't encouraged to document or share his knowledge, but they dismissed my concerns. When we had that Friday afternoon talk after 9 months of trying to bring in some best practices and semblance of organisation, I left the office for the last time with a sense of great relief that I was out of the clusterfuck. It only took me a few weeks to find a much better role and I hope things work out for you too. Edit: Looking back at what I wrote, it might be that the OPs circumstances just offered the opportunity for a bit of a personal rant, which was not the intention. My main point was based on the fact (not explained at all by me in my post) that when I met the two Directors (twice), prior to joining, the setup and opportunity for me looked very positive, and I was convinced I was going to be empowered to fulfil the role. Things turned out very differently, and I clearly did not fit in with the company culture the founders wanted to both leave and stick with simultaneously (it was their comfort zone, and although they knew is was not the best was to run a business, they ultimately couldn't leave it). Moral: Shit happens, despite due dilligence, but that doesn't make it right.
  • 12y ago
• purpleD 12y ago
  When I was a few years out of school I went to my second job and inherited a huge code base with 4000 line java files, no tests, no one who worked on the code still around, etc, at a big non-tech company. I was young and stupid to think I was a bad programmer that I couldn't fix it all in a few weeks by myself. I know it's in the past now, but try to avoid situations like this. If you can't, talk to your boss about what can reasonably be done in what time frame. Now I would try to figure out which parts can realistically be refactored and which can be isolated and rewritten iteratively make things better. I wouldn't take on new features unless I was confident I could deliver with spaghetti around.
• morgante 12y ago
  If you read between the lines, it seems like this job definitely wasn't the right fit. Hence, they were probably in the right for letting you go. But they're definitely in the wrong for how they handled it. In particular, knowing that you moved to Portugal for the job, they should have given you severance sufficient to cover relocation back to Sweden.
  • practicalpants 12y ago
    > they were probably in the right for letting you go. They violated his three month contract. They are not just morally wrong, but legally so as well. If anything it sounds like they're pushing him around because they don't think he'll make the legal effort to get 1.5 months of pay.
    • BSousa 12y ago
      They probably didn't. Again, without knowing the contract, I can't say for sure, but what most likely happened was he was hired with a fixed term contract (Contrato Termo Certo), which is a kind of employment contract very common in Portugal. This doesn't mean he can't be fired for 3 months. There are various provisions for the company to do so (from probation period to lack of productivity or unfit for the job) but they do require some process (the employee has to be informed by writing, is entitled to some severance, etc). On this, and if the account is true is where the company maybe in more trouble. If he worked for 1 month and got 1.5 months of pay, that .5 maybe the severance he is entitled to (not sure about the values so I can't specify if that is correct or not) As for the generality of the Portuguese employment law, you usually have 3 kinds of contracts: - independent contractor/recibos verdes: This is usually a business to business contract, where the 'employee' has little rights regarding employment law except the ones provisioned in the contract itself. Employee also has to pay all taxes/social security. There has been some crack down on these as employers were abusing employees and avoiding paying taxes. There are similar provisions to this in the UK for example with their IR35, which means even if the contract is of this nature, they will be taxed as full-time employees. - fixed term contract: An employment contract with a set end date (can be renewed for a certain amount of times). The usual rules apply regarding vacation, pay, firing processed etc. These regulations are law and while there is some margin to tweak the amounts, they can't be modified or you can't sign of your rights away. - non-fixed term contract: This is what most countries have as standard employment contract but in Portugal it is a bit harder to come by. While things changed recently, up until a few years back, most employers didn't want to do this contracts since firing an employee in this cases is next to impossible without paying a huge settlement amount. So employers usually did fixed term contract with new employees, renew them for the allowed number (usually in total used to be no more than 18 months) and then either let them go (with no severance) or move them to this kind of contract.
• kfk 12y ago
  I see a clear lack of management, communication and leadership skills here. For how meaningless those words might seem here on HN, it really shows when startup founders do not have them. And it's not even a culture fit issue, dealing with people that are not a 100% fit is part of the challenge of managing a business.
  • mpclark 12y ago
    Yes. Allowing situations like this to arise is an indicator of future troubles.
  • VLM 12y ago
    "part of the challenge of managing a business" Part of the benefit, you mean. Although we're only hearing one side, sounds like the culture there is pretty screwed up, so bringing in a guy with higher standards is obviously an epic culture fit fail but possibly the only way to repair the companies culture. Although "pretty screwed up" sounds subjective, there are objective observations, and if they're not fulfilling contracts that's a rather objective measure (did a bank deposit occur or not?) If you have a screwed up situation, and hire a guy who fits right into it as a perfect cultural fit, you haven't solved "the" problem, you now have two problems.
• ransom1538 12y ago
  Ok. I have been hacking in startups for 10 years or so. A few rules to note. 1) Startups almost always fail. Pretty much assume at any point you can be let go for any reason. If you can't afford to blow 3 months of salary and be paid in "promise" - don't do it. 2) Startups are not for everyone. Enjoy good code? Like a peaceful atmosphere? Need comments? Love structure and strategy? Welp - you will fail at a startup. In my 10 years: startups are trench warfare with company ending deadlines. As an exercise: Try borrowing money from your best friend and not paying it back. 3) Legal. You are going to sue a former employer? What a great way of ruining your future. Future employers will avoid you like the plague. Try starting a board meeting with: "Our newest employee is in a legal battle with their former employer...".
  • davidw 12y ago
    > Future employers will avoid you like the plague. What do they know about it, outside of cases that actually end up in the news?
  • prawn 12y ago
    "Legal. You are going to sue a former employer? What a great way of ruining your future." Could say the same thing to Unbabel if this story is as OP has written it up. Not going to pay out the contract? What a great way of ruining your future. Future employees will avoid you like the plague.
    • morgante 12y ago
      > Could say the same thing to Unbabel if this story is as OP has written it up. Not going to pay out the contract? What a great way of ruining your future. Future employees will avoid you like the plague. Yup. Neither party comes out looking good from this.
      • rtpg 12y ago
        I have a hard time conjuring up much sympathy for Unbabel in this situation. Work is work, and this person has come to one of the only recourses. Also, informing the community that a company doesn't seem to value the work of its employees should be valued.
• pkorzeniewski 12y ago
  That's why I'm very suspicious when it comes to stories about "wonderful work environment" at startups. I'm sure there are quite few startups where people really like to work, but I've a feeling most startups are chaotic, unorganised and ego-driven by the founders. To me it's the extreme opposite of big corporations, where everything is over-managed and run by well-defined processes, whicih may be sometimes irritaing, but at least you (usually) know what you're standing on.
  • JonLim 12y ago
    I started ignoring most of those "my workplace is so great!" posts after having had a few startups under my belt. It typically is a giant clusterfuck, but if you believe in the business, enjoy your responsibilities, and can handle the nonsense thrown at you, you'll be fine. Every workplace has its ups and downs, would be weird if it were 100% perfect, eh?
• user_id3 12y ago
  They're going for a second round as UnJesus
• qxmat 12y ago
  I feel for you. I made a similar leap from an OK-paying regional job at an established niche cashcow to a London start-up. The perks: a coffee machine, senior pay cheque. The reality: a shit coffee machine, low moral, no realistic prospect of a profit and no willingness to pivot. 80% of costs have been sunk on a Facebook clone 'with a spin' while the owners try to sell snake oil to investors. We operate like the bad slides of 'Good vs Bad Startup' are a blueprint for success. The owners, almost weekly, come up with an idea someone has to coach them away from - a long ironically drawn out confrontational meeting of: "we don't have the resources". The bit I expected to pay off (medical monitoring hardware) turn out to be crappy I2C/SPI bridges any e.eng graduate could whip out in a month :( I've had long look at myself: how could I turn down other offers yet accept this?! I'm still unsure why. For a while I feared that I deserved this - I'm one of them, one of the guys who decided to create their own header based HTTP authentication system key by a timestamp: a crap programmer. It's been 4 months. Poor tests are still committed despite my best efforts to teach the one doing it that they should test a result not implementation (only 1 test damn it!). We don't use any JS frameworks on the front-end (yet alone my other true love: Typescript) because the last lead dev couldn't understand the immeasurable benefits of model binding. I've done - by no means single handedly - an incremental rewrite of the entire code base (front, middle and back). Although they're paying me on time, they missed my post probation increase :( I could go on but this is probably not the right forum. In short: it's not worked out for me either. Thankfully I've got an excellent track record so I'm off in 3 days to a proper PLC. I heard large companies, like the BBC have 15 (FIFTEEN) designers in their News division alone... I can't wait to have just one designer unencumbered, available and talented. The whole saga has left me with the strong suspicion most startups are a joke (no I don't want to be a DBA/CSS/JS and C# guru who maintains the iOS codebase!). Inept owners who're unwilling to pivot, often trapped by the sunk cost fallacy, or owners expect to create a market with their 'one true solution [to a problem you no-one has]' plague the startup scene. No product should ever be a Facebook clone :( For what it's worth, if I was hiring now I'd interview you solely on your written language skills (which are better than most native English speakers, myself included).
  • pavlov 12y ago
    ... the last lead dev couldn't understand the immeasurable benefits of model binding So if the benefits can't be measured, you're suggesting that the front-end should be rewritten as a matter of pure faith in model binding? (Honestly, that's my impression of how most people decide to adopt a JavaScript framework. "Yeah, we don't really understand the whole, and there are all these edge cases where you have to work against the framework, but overall it's immeasurably better because of philosophy and purity.") I can't wait to have just one designer unencumbered, available and talented. Good luck with that at a large corporation, I guess... :)
• FollowSteph3 12y ago
  I hate to say this but whenever you relocate that is your decision. The company isn't really in any obligations to keep you or pay your move back unless you pre-negotiate that either with a signing bonus or as a clause in your contract. Generally a relocation is offset with a signing bonus and higher salary which is why the risk is worth it, but never doubt that it's a risk you have to take. I know because I've done it myself before, moving countries and all.
  • spinlock 12y ago
    OP had a 3 month contract which was not honored (according to this side of the story). That's why he lost his deposit on the apartment that he'd let for 3 months.
    • FollowSteph3 12y ago
      But did it have an early termination clause he omitted. Every single contract I've seen has an early termination clause in it.
      • andreasgonewild 12y ago
        Kind of hard to tell when the entire fcking contract is in Portuguese and you depend on someone else to explain it to you. I still have no idea if the clause is in there or not. What I can't get through my head is why you'd write a contract at all if both parties are free to do whatever the fck they want anyway...
        • DanBC 12y ago
          You can write fuck - writing f*ck causes italicization. Did you take the contract to someone outside Unbabel to check?
          • andreasgonewild 12y ago
            No, the contract was presented and explained to me by the founders, at the time they treated me like royalty so it didn't even cross my mind to question them or waste money on a Portuguese lawyer. And where I come from, having a contract means you need a good reason to break it.
• fimdomeio 12y ago
  I fear that if the OP was portuguese, what happened would probably look kinda normal. In the last 10/15 years or so most labour laws have been destroyed or made irrelevant and the crysis just made it even worse. With the scarcity of money it appears to have grown a culture of chaos. To me this story is just another one.
• seren 12y ago
  This is a bit of a cliché but I wonder if there are some cultural differences at play there. Like the hectic and chaotic pace for a Swede, would be business as usual for a Portuguese. This is likely not the root cause, but it probably did not help the miscommunication, maybe even during the recruiting phase. I also assume that if OP is not a native Portuguese speaker, it was harder to fit in, and it was easier to miss a critical info you're colleague could be discussing. I expect UnBabel to answer that OP was not communicating enough, etc. which could only be due to cultural differences.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    From having lived most of my life in Sweden and three months in Portugal I'd say it's mostly the opposite. The further south you go the more things slows down. But I agree, some of the parameters that got us here are probably cultural. One thing I did notice was that a lot of the communication in the office was in Portuguese, which obviously means I didn't get that information.
• jprince 12y ago
  As terrible as this experience was, what's most alarming is that you're 37, have been working for nearly 20 years in this field, and don't have enough savings to tide you over even two months without work. You really need to learn to save your income and cut your lifestyle. I hope that if it turns out your story is true, that these guys are in some way brought to justice, karmic or otherwise. Best of luck.
  • kenjackson 12y ago
    You don't know what the OP has been through it done. I'd avoid giving financial advice without knowing more about their situation.
    • novaleaf 12y ago
      I think this critique is meant mostly for us, readers. Anyway the author decided this is related information so i don't see why it should not be discussed
    • schnable 12y ago
      That's fair but then I would ask why take the risk of working for a startup and moving across the continent?
  • rokhayakebe 12y ago
    Did you read yourself? What do you know about his life? Could he have lost all his savings due to a a divorce, or an accident, or some other type of tragedy? What if he always had to support others?
    • hanspeter 12y ago
      I hope he didn't take the decision to leave a good job in a country with one of the best economies in Europe for a start-up job in a country with one of the worst economies in Europe - while having no savings and/or having to support others.
      • 12y ago
• fun2have 12y ago
  Before you started working together, did you discus what would happen if things did not work well? Was your salary closer to that of the norm in Sweden, or that of the Portuguese? The difference is substantial. Did they think you where amazing at first and had too high an expectation? If you salary was closer to the Swedish norm then they may have thought that 2 weeks pay was a very substantial amount. In Portugal, I believe, that unless you let people go before the trial period is over, then a whole lot of protective measures kick in. For anybody looking to hire anybody abroad it is having the conversation about what happens when things don't go well. It would be good to hear the Unbabel side of the story. [Disclosure] Two of the founders are what I would call acquaintances of mine.
• btipling 12y ago
  The truth of it is that the startup life isn't for every engineer. Startup code is messy. You don't have architects who draw UMLs for you, you don't have the luxury of time to do things right. At a small startup everything is often falling apart at the seams. Morale can rise and crash, repeatedly, like a roller coaster. Small startups often have to visit the iron bank of technical debt and take out a huge loan to put in that feature a very important customer wants right that second. Tests are very important, but spending too much on them can waste precious time. You're always flying low to the ground. You're looking at the short term: days and weeks, not months and years. That said, technical debt sucks and should be avoided at all cost, but priorities aren't the same when you're a three or four person team with about a year's worth of runway.
  • smileysteve 12y ago
    This is the antithesis of lean. If code is particularly messy, unplanned, and untested you might be feature searching as opposed to having a vitamin or medicine feature that a customer will pay for. Release early, get feedback often. Choose a core competency.
  • enjo 12y ago
    >At a small startup everything is often falling apart at the seams... >Morale can rise and crash, repeatedly, like a roller coaster... >You're looking at the short term: days and weeks, not months and years... None of this rings true to me. Not at any startup I've worked at/founded at least(6 in total over the last 12 years). In reality good startups are relatively even keel. Hell I would argue that startups, almost by definition, think MORE in the long-term than their larger counterparts. In a startup you are always progressing towards a long-term goal, constantly taking in feedback and making adjustments. It's much like sailing to a small island thousands of miles away. A mistake in navigation in the beginning that goes uncaught will put you farther off course than one farther along on your journey (although sometimes that mistake means you discover North America and then pretend like you meant to do that all along). The point being, if your startup is constantly in panic mode or is constantly trading long-term stability for short-term satisfaction then you should probably be thinking about leaving. At least from my point of view.
• mmgm 12y ago
  In the Portuguese labour law the default "experimental" period lasts a minimum of 90 days (for both employer and employee). During the experimental period any of the parties may void the contract without any compensation (except for the time already worked) unless noted otherwise in your contract ... Also there is no notice period required. As a disclaimer, I note that I am friends with one of the founders of Unbabel. I don't know their side of the story and I am sad this happened to you. Still, from what you say, as far as I can tell, they acted within the boundaries of the portuguese labour code.
  • Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
    This highlights one of the risks with going and working in another country - what seems fair, reasonable and legal to you may be very different in another country. As someone who lives in Europe I find American hire / fire at will contracts terrifying (getting rid of someone in the UK can be a torturous process, in other European countries even worse) but obviously in most states (?) in the US they're the norm. Lesson to learn - before you agree to work somewhere else, understand the culture and legal framework you're going to be working in if at all possible and set your expectations accordingly.
    • DanBC 12y ago
      > (getting rid of someone in the UK can be a torturous process, It's really easy to get rid of employees in England. While it's not quite "at will" it's pretty close. You don't even need to give a reason in writing if the person has been working for you for less than 2 years. https://www.gov.uk/dismissal https://www.gov.uk/dismissal > You have the right to ask for a written statement from your employer giving the reasons why you’ve been dismissed if you’re an employee and have completed 2 years’ service (1 year if you started before 6 April 2012).
      • Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
        It really isn't, trust me, I've been through it a few times (as an employer). There is a lot of detail hidden behind this: "If you’re dismissed, your employer must show they’ve: * a valid reason that they can justify * acted reasonably in the circumstances They must also: * be consistent - eg not dismiss you for doing something that they let other employees do * have investigated the situation fully before dismissing you - eg if a complaint was made about you" There actually aren't that many valid reasons. Cultural fit certainly isn't one (and has the potential to get you in all sorts of equalities issues if there is any possibility that age, religion or anything else can be seen as a proxy for the way you didn't fit). If you want to claim someone isn't good at their job you need to be able to back it up and show you gave them every opportunity to turn it around (including having given them all the relevant support and training). Generally speaking that would be a performance management exercise (several weeks of monitored performance) which is time consuming and rubbish for all involved. And that's before you even get into the whole performance is hard to accurately measure in IT issues. The investigated fully part is also important. If you diverge from your stated policy (or a reasonable policy if there isn't one stated - the ACAS one is usually the template) then you can be found against at a tribunal even if you reasons and evidence were sound. Obviously people do ignore all this and get away with it (particularly in IT where people can often get new jobs relatively easily) but that doesn't mean you will or that what you did was legal. Your best shot is if the contract has a defined probation period (3 to 6 months) during which you can pretty much get rid of people at will but after that, even before 2 years is up, it's going to take some work. It's not impossible but it's an exercise which will take a lot of your time and likely have a significant impact on team morale.
• anmonteiro90 12y ago
  As injust as Unbabel's behavior towards you might have been, I feel this story is being told from a rather extreme perspective, wouldn't you agree? As a 37-year-old who has been writing code since 8, I feel that you should be more used to finding clumsy code, especially in a startup (that I suppose is iterating very fast, trying to make ends meet). As someone who confidently relocated from Sweden to Portugal, were you aware of the Portuguese economic situation? Didn't you make sure you had enough savings in case it all went down the drain (as it turned out to happen)? I can't help to feel that you took this somewhat blind leap with little to no information at all. This doesn't all mean that I blame you solely; the situation is, of course, tremendously shameful for Unbabel.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    I wasn't surprised to find bad code there. I was surprised that my job didn't seem to include making it better. Unbabel is based in SF and is unique in offering SF level compensation in Portugal. Perhaps I was naive in expecting them to honor our contract, it does seem like fucking people over is business as usual in Portugal.
    • ergodic 12y ago
      Context: I lived in Lisbon four years and know one of the founders of Unbabel. I do not know you, neither your story. Regarding your comments: > That's one thing I really hated about Portugal, they just don't offer any information in English >Thanks, but from the experience I had with both my employer and my landlord in Portugal I'd rather not do business with any Portuguese people ever again. Sorry. >it does seem like fucking people over is business as usual in Portugal >Have you had any experience with the Portuguese state or legal system? I'd probably still be standing in a queue somewhere. Blaming the whole country for a 90 day experience does not seem very proportional to me. Again, I do not know your story and can not speak for the veracity of your facts. What I do know is Lisbon (and I have lived many years in Spain and Germany to compare with). From that I know that you are just being, at best, exaggerated and I wonder if you have been exaggerating other stuff too.
• raverbashing 12y ago
  I see two sides to this: - Is Unbabel making money? If they haven't shipped yet, bad for them, but on the other side, the software may be doing its part (of generating revenue) - People sometimes come with an idealized view that in a perfect world all code is fully tested and follows all rules and conventions. Most often than not, it doesn't. There's a balance between improvement for the sake of code and adding new features and bugfixes (not necessarily related to the lack of unit testing or stuff like this) " I repeatedly asked for more guidance but all I got was reprimands for not taking every little detail into account in the code I wrote." Here's the thing, no one will hold you by the hand. There's a lot of things you'll have to find out by yourself.
  • personZ 12y ago
    This is why I never take these sorts of stories at face value. I'm not casting aspersions on the author, but at the same time I'm not willing to blindly accept the same against others. In these sorts of situation, invariable both sides feel they were wronged in some way. I've hired, and directed, people who just didn't work out, and many of them could write something very similar to what the author submitted. Because what I was hiring were people to help propel us forward in short-order, and did everything possible to filter and convey expectations of the same, but some hires needed so much direction, so much hand-holding, and so much oversight that they ended up literally being a net negative on velocity of the whole. So it just wasn't a fit and we had to split ways. There are different companies, at different stages and sizes, where that sort of thing is perfectly okay. But at anything where the word "startup" might be applied, it just isn't the case.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    I'm all for finding stuff out by myself if the company culture embraces failure as a method of learning. Unfortunately, at Unbabel that's not the case.
• andrewljohnson 12y ago
  If the contract says 3 months, he should be paid for 3 months, end of story. I think the blog needs to include the contract to really know if anything illegal is going on.
  • FollowSteph3 12y ago
    The thing is we're only seeing one side of the story. It assumes both parties agree. That being said generally all contracts have an early termination clause. He doesn't comment on what that is. Generally with 3 month contracts, it can be pretty short. It doesn't necessarily mean finish the 3 months. To give you an analogy if you hire a general contractor to renovate your home for a 3 month contract, you can terminate the contract early if it's not working out for you. Maybe the contractor is amazing but you just ran out of funds. In any case the issue is that there is always an early termination clause in contracts. I would be curious what his is...
    • andreasgonewild 12y ago
      The whole contract was written on paper in Portuguese. I still don't know if the clause is in there or not. They certainly didn't mention it when they explained the contract to me. Naive, yes probably, but I prefer not suspecting everyone of being assholes before the fact.
      • FollowSteph3 12y ago
        Something I've learned is never sign any work or business contracts unless you fully read through it and understand it. Even if this means getting your own lawyer to read it. Unfortunately saying you did understand the language is not a valid reason. It sucks but that's also the reason why thee were so many bad mortgages in the recent real estate bust. Too many people didn't read their mortgage agreements. As the saying goes everything is good while it's good and everything goes bad when it goes bad.
        • andreasgonewild 12y ago
• logn 12y ago
  I don't know about European labor laws or your contract, but by US standards I don't think they did anything wrong and a blog post such as this would be perceived negatively. edit: I mean no offense but just wanted to make you aware how this would be perceived by US readers potentially. US is lacking in a lot of labor protections.
  • TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Well, "being a jerk" is not a legal concept; there are many things that are perfectly legal, and still something - to quote Eric Naggum - "that you do not do if you want to be a moral being and feel proud of what you have accomplished".
• annnnd 12y ago
  There is a slight point in founders' favor - sometimes when you need to get out and just get the stuff done, you don't write test for every non-essential piece of code. You also just copy/paste that controller, because you know you will probably throw most of the code away anyway. All you want is to know if the business model works. After all, you are not building core systems for a financial institution. And you know that if it takes off there will be more than enough time to fix stuff properly. That said, I strongly disagree with not paying your employees fully. If you are a founder, you have an obligation to the people you hire. YOU SHOULD PAY THEM! If you think you should pay them only for a month and a half, fire them on time. In the end, bad match should always be founder's responsibility. EDIT: HN could really use "Preview" button. :)
  • deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  • a_c_s 12y ago
    Fired after 1 month but paid for 1.5 months: seems generous to me.
    • annnnd 12y ago
      Depends on the contract - they agreed on 3 months. The core of the problem is that they didn't hire him for a shorter time (test run) / weren't able to use him for the remaining time.
• Grue3 12y ago
  Sounds similar to one of my jobs. I worked for 2 months, got paid for half a month. What a waste.
• chroma 12y ago
  I agree with many of the other comments here: If this story is true, Unbabel's behavior is reprehensible. That said, look at Andreas Wild's G+[1]. He has another recently-created blog in which he spouts off some weirdness about consciousness and astrology[2]. This makes me think he is a somewhat unstable person. And it reinforces my initial feeling that we should wait for both sides of the story to emerge before forming conclusions. 1. https://plus.google.com/108299200044097592336/posts https://plus.google.com/108299200044097592336/posts 2. http://esoteric-keys.blogspot.com/2013/12/consciousness.html http://esoteric-keys.blogspot.com/2013/12/consciousness.html
  • dontbeabitch 12y ago
    nice ad hominem assmunch
  • iand 12y ago
    The consciousness article is from last year.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    You have got to be f*cking kidding me! I've studied more Esoteric literature and practiced more Yoga than most. Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, you have no idea what you're talking about?
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• Turukawa 12y ago
  There was a great piece of advice I was given about 20 years ago by the South African guru of franchising, Eric Parker: "Run your small business as if it was a large business", or, "Start as you mean to go on". There is a great deal of bullshit in the tech industry; that chaos is somehow normal and that planning and the principles of good management can wait "till we're big". It should be painfully obvious that once chaos has set in, then that is the business environment and it cannot change. If that environment includes hiring in panic and treating people badly, and the organisation survives anyway, then that organisation becomes one in which toxic relationships are rewarded indefinitely. It will be unsurprising that people like the OP will find it horrifying and be forced out.
  • andrew93101 12y ago
    "Run your small business as if it were a large business" is a quote that I would disagree with for startups, for two reasons: - it encourages premature scaling - many large businesses have lost the ability to innovate and lost the ability to respond quickly to market changes. Both of those consequences can be fatal for a startup.
    • Turukawa 12y ago
      Nope, small companies that don't think about growth while they have the time, cement bad practice. "Run your small business as if it were a large business" is more about conscious decision-making and awareness of consequence. Do your admin, make sure payroll is documented and people are paid on time, make sure that managers pay attention to work-load and communication, develop work practices that support people rather than assuming everyone is committed to 24-hour days ... sweat the small stuff so that your employees can get on with the thing you hired them for without concern. It's all those assumptions that get small businesses as they scale. And then - if they survive - they become horrible, impersonal large businesses. A small business is like a small child. All the potential is there, but surround that child with all the clutter of a poor environment and it will become an adult that perpetuates the system it was raised in. "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man," said the Jesuits. They knew what they were talking about ;)
  • 12y ago
• nrshirj 12y ago
  >I arrived in the final stages of a big rewrite of the core architecture that was already late. The code was a tangled mess of mindless duplication, half-implemented features and misleading comments. Of the few automated tests that existed, most didn't even run anymore. I feel for you. But with your experience, this shouldn't be a surprise for you?? The focus in Startups is to get the code out and get a (paying) customer and the priority is not always on the quality of the code/tests. In the Enterprise world you have some more time to do more tests, code review et. al and may be you got used to it.
  • SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
    Mindless duplication shouldn't be a part of any software project, full-stop. It takes only slightly more time to refactor code into functions than it does to copy and paste, and the difference in comprehensibility is massive.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    The surprise was that my job didn't seem to include flagging problems or improving the code.
• segmondy 12y ago
  It comes with the startup game. What would you have done if the startup ran out of money in a month? You pack up and go home, this also happens, where sometimes they think they have money, and perhaps weren't paying enough taxes or a deal that was going to come through fails. The reality is that if you join a startup, you should take your job day to day. You should consider it an adventure. Do not expect it to be organized like a corporate job. There is going to be a lot of GROWING PAINS, for young folks with no real world experience, they don't know better. For someone experienced in the industry, man, is it painful! But with that experience, you have to figure out how to lead, your work is not just to code, the bigger puzzle to solve is how to slowly bring about best practices, and you will get a lot of resistance. You lead by showing. Don't worry about others, they don't wanna write tests? fine, write your own tests, write extra for others if you can. They don't want to document or use revision control? Do so, one day, someone is going to read the comments in your code and realize that it makes sense to document, or read a process document. It might take time, but they will see the light. In a startup environment, do not complain! It helps nothing, you must wade through the garbage, that's just the way it is. I'm much older and I know this reality. I work for a big company, it's "boring", it pays great, a lot of startup's court me trying to get me to get on board for half the salary and promise of fun, but nope! I'll work more with less discipline and less pay and no stability. I know this. Should I ever join one, I can assure, I won't cry if they shut down the next day after I joined, that's the gamble. Startups fail more than they succeed.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    Again, this isn't about the lack of safety nets, this is about behaving like total jerks and getting away with it. I did try to flag problems, I added more tests, I proposed improvements and went ahead and implemented them. And here we are. Seeing the light implicates seeing anything at all besides pieces of paper with funny faces on.
• matheusbn 12y ago
  According to Unbabel website: >We are a fast growing, fast paced startup who is trying to change the world by making comunication seamless in any language. Source: https://www.unbabel.com/jobs/ https://www.unbabel.com/jobs/ #Comment: Well there is something wrong with their communication.
• webwright 12y ago
  It was unclear to me what the terms of the contract were in terms of early termination of the agreement by either party. If you're moving for a 3 month "try before you buy" agreement, it's good to have that clause in the agreement or at least discuss it. Say something like, "You guys seem like you're pretty organized, but I've heard a horror story or two about startup hiring... Companies pivoting and laying people off/etc. Given that I'm moving for this opportunity, can we have a clause in the agreement that spreads the risk around a bit? Say, if you guys let me go for any reason before the end of the contract, I get $X as a severance in consideration for my moving expenses, etc."
• pender 12y ago
  The real lesson to be learned: don't jump out on a limb without pre-established safety net. Moving to a new country seems like pretty big risk to take on a 3 month contract. Heck I wouldn't move from a current job to another one in town without a signing bonus to cover the risk.
  • andreasgonewild 12y ago
    The problem here isn't that I didn't have a safety net, I'll survive. The problem from my perspective is they behaved like total jerks and were getting away with it.
    • pender 12y ago
      Did u change the content of your article since originally posting it?
      • andreasgonewild 12y ago
        I removed the reference to my current financial situation as some people took it as an invitation to speculate about my private life and start giving financial advice. The point I was trying to make is that I'm not trying to get rich by squeezing more money out of Unbabel.
        • pender 12y ago
          As I remember it, your original write up painted a picture showing that you were in dire straights as a consequence of the situation. That came across, to me, as going too far. The outcome of your situation was certainly impacted by them, but really you put yourself in the situation and therefore it's outcome. While I do think they were being cheap, they did not land you there - you did. I hope it works out better for you in the future. I'm pretty sure it will, you obviously have the skill... just need to find a better fit.
• teraflop 12y ago
  Is this a good place to ask why the title of this link was changed? It was originally the same as the title of the blog post, including "(YC/2014)". I've noticed this kind of alteration a number of times on stories about YC-backed companies, and I don't recall ever seeing it when the story was positive. EDIT: And now the post is getting rapidly demoted on the front page, below links that are older and have fewer votes.
  • krschultz 12y ago
    I thought the policy was to use the title exactly as it appears on the article?
    • taylorbuley 12y ago
      That is the policy, "unless it is misleading or linkbait." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • dang 12y ago
    The (YC XYZ) tags are for major third-party articles and launches. We take them out of the titles of blog posts. I'm not sure exactly why, but it's been the convention for a long time. This, however: > I don't recall ever seeing it when the story was positive ... is just sample bias. By far most cases of this are positive stories. Indeed most are blog posts written by the companies themselves. Sometimes they even complain and think we're biased against them, which of course is not true, just sample bias again. Re the story rank: users tend to flag stories that have a high controversy-to-substance ratio, and moderators penalize such stories. In the case of negative posts about YC or YC-funded startups, our policy is to penalize them less, not more. But that doesn't mean we do nothing. Why? Because the heat of indignation guarantees massive upvotes. There needs to be a countervailing factor or such posts would fill the front page every day. It's a balancing act.
    • teraflop 12y ago
      Fair enough, thanks for the explanation.
• gyardley 12y ago
  I've often wondered why incubators like YC don't have sessions that say 'from experience, these are the sort of behaviors that are counterproductive for your startup - watch out for and avoid them.' I know that as a first-time founder I screwed the pooch in all sorts of ways I could've avoided with a little more guidance.
• vasco_ 12y ago
  For the record I am a co-founder and CEO of Unbabel. I feel that I should respond to these allegations. 1 - The contract we had with Andreas was full time employee contract. The first three months were "at will" which means that either one was free to terminate the relation at any time. We have a signed contract to prove it and I am happy to share a sample of the contract to anyone that wants. When we fired him, we not only paid him what we owed, but we paid him an extra 15 days of work in addition to $1000 dollars to offset any unexpected costs. Which we didn't have to. We also have receipts of all the transactions, If need be. 2 - We fired him because he was a terrible fit to Unbabel. It became clear very quickly that it would not work. In the end the responsibility of hiring him was ours, and we are really sorry it did not make the right choice. This made it clear that we have room for improvement in our hiring processes. 3 - He did really well on interviews and we went to considerable lengths to bring him to Portugal. We paid his airplane ticket, we lent him money for rent, we helped him search for a house, amongst other things. I am personally really proud that Unbabel is an example of how we can capitalize on excellent talent in Europe and Andreas was the first person from Sweden. We have people from 5 nationalities at Unbabel and we pride ourselves in having a great environment to work with. 4 – We believe that the culture of the company is extremely important and we devote a lot of energy to it. Everyone in Unbabel is expected to participate actively in the company Meaning that they are part of the planning, and encouraged to be autonomous in creating the best products possible. We truly enjoy working with each other and spending time together. For example, every week we go surfing on Wednesday morning in the beautiful beaches of Lisbon. It is not mandatory, but every one has loved it so far. It is an amazing way make sure that every week we hang out together outside the company. We try really hard to make sure that working at Unbabel is an amazing experience. We pay well above average for Portugal, which means that you get a really good life here. We offer health insurance, surf lessons, catered lunches once a week and beers on Friday afternoon. We give you autonomy and agency, we are transparent about the company every employee has a chance to make a difference. Come and see for yourself what it is like to work at the best Translation Startup in the world. A position just opened up :)
  • matthieu88 12y ago
    Hard to believe the skill acusations when there's such a glass house. In terms of rookie mistakes they sure make a lot http://unbabel.co/admin http://unbabel.co/admin (django admin exposed). http://dev.unbabel.com/ http://dev.unbabel.com/ (django dev toolbar with delicate details on settings and so on). So Andreas,don't bother,even these guys are well funded,in terms of python and django skills i wouldn't enjoy work here
• joshmn 12y ago
  Hi Andreas, Shoot me an email (in profile); I'd like to help get you some food at the very least.
• BrotherBrax 12y ago
  Since many people are making (wrong) assumptions about Portuguese work laws, I'd like to chime in as a Portuguese guy working in IT and with good knowledge of these laws (I like to always be aware of my rights). The critical part of this argument is the "at will" period that Vasco (Unbabel's CEO) mentioned, technically called an "experimental period" (EP). Here is a summary (in Portuguese -- the Google translated version is decent enough) of the relevant part of the law: http://emprego.sapo.pt/guia-carreira/artigo/166/artigo.htm http://emprego.sapo.pt/guia-carreira/artigo/166/artigo.htm Also, here is the law itself in case you want to read it (articles 111 to 114, also in Portuguese): http://www.legix.pt/Portals/3/docs/CT09-23_Jul_2012.pdf http://www.legix.pt/Portals/3/docs/CT09-23_Jul_2012.pdf The typical way to hire full-time workers in Portugal is indeed a full-time contract with an experimental period (EP), what Vasco colloquially called an "at-will" period. These contracts are called "por tempo indeterminado" (or sometimes "sem termo" or "com termo incerto"), which means "for an indefinite period". The EP can last between 90 days (3 months) and 240 days (8 months) -- non-managerial roles get 90 days, which is what Andreas had on his contract (shorter durations benefit the worker). After the EP is over it is VERY hard, from a legal standpoint, to fire a worker, which is why the EP exists in the first place. During this experimental period, the employer can terminate the contract with no advance notice and paying no compensation for the first 2 months. Between 2 months and 4 months (if the EP lasts that long), the employer must warn 7 days prior, or pay 7 days of salary as compensation. After more than 4 months, and until the end of the EP, it is 15 days. The worker can always terminate the contract with no notice during the EP. After the EP is over, the worker must provide 1 month of advance notice to terminate the contract, and the company usually cannot fire the worker at all. According to Andreas' original post, he was fired after 1 month, during his EP, which means he is entitled to no compensation. Unbabel paid two extra weeks of salary (Andreas admits that in his blog post), which shows that they treated him better than the law requires. If indeed he was also paid $1000 extra (from Vasco's post), that is even further above what the law requires. Andreas' blog post suggests that he thought he had a 3-month contract, which he did not. Legally, he could even be fired after 1 day on the job, and get paid 1 day and nothing more. While Unbabel may be slightly guilty of not explaining correctly what Andreas signed, I still believe that Andreas has the majority of the blame for not understanding what he signed or searching around what are the typical work laws in Portugal. Heck, if I went to Sweden, I'd ask for an English translation of the contract from someone outside the company, even if the company itself provided an English translation. What happened with the landlord seems to confirm this, since he had the legal right to stay for as long as his deposits lasted, and simply calling the police (no need for a lawsuit) would ensure that he could stay until his deposits ran out. It is, again, very hard to evict a person just like that. In summary: Unless I'm missing something here, Andreas was treated considerably better than required by law and has no legal grounds for complaining.