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I live in Berlin and this is extremely satisfying. I'm beginning to doubt that Silicon Valley startups have any clue how European cities work. We germans in gen

I live in Berlin and this is extremely satisfying. I'm beginning to doubt that Silicon Valley startups have any clue how European cities work. We germans in general are weary of evil, predatory enterprises that start a spiral to the bottom. Jest aside: This is just not how things work here, for good or bad. I think there's also not that much room for disruption in the Uber case, at least in Germany. The market for cabs is very much unlike the market in the US - there's not a single huge company owning all the cabs in Berlin and a medallion does not cost a million EUR. Service has been pretty ok for me so far and I use a lot of cabs, so I actually don't see much of an upside but I do see a lot of potential downsides, not that much for me who could easily afford a surge pricing but for people that maybe can't and have to rely on regular cabs.

smsm42 12y ago
>>> I think there's also not that much room for disruption in the Uber case, at least in Germany I suspect there is, otherwise there would be no need to ban it.
- Xylakant 12y ago
  By that argument I could say that the drug market in the US is in dire need of disruption, since otherwise there'd be no need to ban the sale of cocaine at Walmart.
  - smsm42 12y ago
    War on Drugs is the worst thing that happened in US politics in 20th century, but discussing this topic would take us too far aside. In this case, the ban was clearly initiated by competitors (while in Walmart's case it has nothing to do with banning drugs) - the article itself says "The preliminary injunction comes in response to a lawsuit by the national association of taxi drivers." Nobody claims driving is bad - they just claim the other guy can't be allowed to do it.
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      No, the claim is that by skirting the Personenbeförderungsgesetz (Law on transporting people), Uber is violating the the law about unfair competition. Any competitor in germany can sue any competitor on those grounds: If you engage in unfair business practices you'll be fined. Nobody claimed (at least in this case) that Uber itself should be banned - UberBlack is unaffected by this injunction. Ubers unfair business practices have been banned.
- ookware 12y ago
  It is not banned, they are being told to ensure they meet the minimum legal requirements such as car safety and driver safety checks.
  - smsm42 12y ago
    These requirements are not "minimum" - as there are thousands of drivers in Germany that are not required to meet those requirements. I myself was driving in Germany, more than once, without meeting any such requirements. However, somehow the same drivers which were completely safe a minute ago flooding all German roads without any "minimum requirements" become critically unsafe - so unsafe that they must be banned - as soon as they try to earn money. Though the same unsafe drivers are allowed to continue driving freely - as long as they do not take money. The only thing that changes is if the same drivers take money or not - and you're saying it is about safety?
    - danbruc 12y ago
      It is obviously for the passenger's safety and convenience, not for the driver's.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      These rquirements are the minimum for commercial drivers.
    - zeeed 12y ago
      Let's assume you drive in Germany and take an Uber passenger and get involved in an accident fatal for the pax, after you fail to reanimate him and your tires are slightly overdue for a change. The family sues you for reckless driving and causing the death of your pax, in the first instance the court finds you guilty. Now how do you argue that the requirements are not minimum? How do you pay for the damage? Do you expect legal protection from Uber? Do you think they would provide you with that, in Germany? Do you actually know about the legal system in Germany or how can you make a statement about the level of requirements?
    - DasIch 12y ago
      Taxis operate under very different conditions than normal cars. Most peoples cars are parked at least 20h a day. Taxis on the other hand are often operated in shifts and are in operation 24/7. This has significant effects on how much maintenance is required, how likely an accident is etc. this in turn results in potentially higher costs for insurance, requires more frequent checkups. In addition a driver's license in Germany never expires, unless you violate any laws you can never lose it. That may or may not be reasonable for people driving a private car, it's a lot less reasonable for people operating a car commercially and potentially with passengers. Passengers who have the reasonable expectation of having a driver who's healthy enough to drive.
- dagw 12y ago
  They haven't banned Uber, just required that they follow the laws and regulations that everybody else has to follow. Once Uber does that then they're free to operate in Germany.
  - smsm42 12y ago
    "A court in Frankfurt has ordered the smartphone application 'Uber' to stop its transportation services in Germany" Is this not a ban? Are you saying Uber drivers weren't following the regulations every other driver in Germany has to follow - they were not obeying traffic laws, not holding driving licenses, etc.? No, they didn't follow additional regulations that not everybody has to follow.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      They are being stopped from operating without taxi permits and licensed vehicles. So that's not a blanket ban as far as I can see.
      - smsm42 12y ago
        That's like saying "we're not banning drugs, we're just banning drugs unless you're a surgeon that needs drugs to sedate a patient". Effectively, that's banning what they're doing, if they wanted to open a taxi company that'd be completely different business.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        > if they wanted to open a taxi company that'd be completely different business. The German courts disagree with you on that one. You can like it or not but they get to have the last say in this.
        zeeed 12y ago
        There is a difference between banning and regulating. If a certain culture finds that certain businesses better be regulated for whatever reason (and your exsmple is actually a good one) that's OK and must be followed. Take for instance the FDA that heavily heavily regulates the US market. I could argue that I as a customer should be able to choose myself what I eat and drink, yet that's not the case. You may call that cartel, mafia, whatever you want but it's how administrations work..
bergie 12y ago
The taxis here in Berlin even have an app that is quite similar to how you order an Uber. Though of course you still have to pay at the end of the ride with cash or card.
- addandsubtract 12y ago
  You can pay your taxi ride in app as well. [1] [1] https://de.mytaxi.com/en/fahrgast.html https://de.mytaxi.com/en/fahrgast.html

smsm42 12y ago

>>> I think there's also not that much room for disruption in the Uber case, at least in Germany I suspect there is, otherwise there would be no need to ban it.

Xylakant 12y ago
By that argument I could say that the drug market in the US is in dire need of disruption, since otherwise there'd be no need to ban the sale of cocaine at Walmart.
- smsm42 12y ago
  War on Drugs is the worst thing that happened in US politics in 20th century, but discussing this topic would take us too far aside. In this case, the ban was clearly initiated by competitors (while in Walmart's case it has nothing to do with banning drugs) - the article itself says "The preliminary injunction comes in response to a lawsuit by the national association of taxi drivers." Nobody claims driving is bad - they just claim the other guy can't be allowed to do it.
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    No, the claim is that by skirting the Personenbeförderungsgesetz (Law on transporting people), Uber is violating the the law about unfair competition. Any competitor in germany can sue any competitor on those grounds: If you engage in unfair business practices you'll be fined. Nobody claimed (at least in this case) that Uber itself should be banned - UberBlack is unaffected by this injunction. Ubers unfair business practices have been banned.
ookware 12y ago
It is not banned, they are being told to ensure they meet the minimum legal requirements such as car safety and driver safety checks.
- smsm42 12y ago
  These requirements are not "minimum" - as there are thousands of drivers in Germany that are not required to meet those requirements. I myself was driving in Germany, more than once, without meeting any such requirements. However, somehow the same drivers which were completely safe a minute ago flooding all German roads without any "minimum requirements" become critically unsafe - so unsafe that they must be banned - as soon as they try to earn money. Though the same unsafe drivers are allowed to continue driving freely - as long as they do not take money. The only thing that changes is if the same drivers take money or not - and you're saying it is about safety?
  - danbruc 12y ago
    It is obviously for the passenger's safety and convenience, not for the driver's.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    These rquirements are the minimum for commercial drivers.
  - zeeed 12y ago
    Let's assume you drive in Germany and take an Uber passenger and get involved in an accident fatal for the pax, after you fail to reanimate him and your tires are slightly overdue for a change. The family sues you for reckless driving and causing the death of your pax, in the first instance the court finds you guilty. Now how do you argue that the requirements are not minimum? How do you pay for the damage? Do you expect legal protection from Uber? Do you think they would provide you with that, in Germany? Do you actually know about the legal system in Germany or how can you make a statement about the level of requirements?
  - DasIch 12y ago
    Taxis operate under very different conditions than normal cars. Most peoples cars are parked at least 20h a day. Taxis on the other hand are often operated in shifts and are in operation 24/7. This has significant effects on how much maintenance is required, how likely an accident is etc. this in turn results in potentially higher costs for insurance, requires more frequent checkups. In addition a driver's license in Germany never expires, unless you violate any laws you can never lose it. That may or may not be reasonable for people driving a private car, it's a lot less reasonable for people operating a car commercially and potentially with passengers. Passengers who have the reasonable expectation of having a driver who's healthy enough to drive.
dagw 12y ago
They haven't banned Uber, just required that they follow the laws and regulations that everybody else has to follow. Once Uber does that then they're free to operate in Germany.
- smsm42 12y ago
  "A court in Frankfurt has ordered the smartphone application 'Uber' to stop its transportation services in Germany" Is this not a ban? Are you saying Uber drivers weren't following the regulations every other driver in Germany has to follow - they were not obeying traffic laws, not holding driving licenses, etc.? No, they didn't follow additional regulations that not everybody has to follow.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    They are being stopped from operating without taxi permits and licensed vehicles. So that's not a blanket ban as far as I can see.
    - smsm42 12y ago
      That's like saying "we're not banning drugs, we're just banning drugs unless you're a surgeon that needs drugs to sedate a patient". Effectively, that's banning what they're doing, if they wanted to open a taxi company that'd be completely different business.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        > if they wanted to open a taxi company that'd be completely different business. The German courts disagree with you on that one. You can like it or not but they get to have the last say in this.
      - zeeed 12y ago
        There is a difference between banning and regulating. If a certain culture finds that certain businesses better be regulated for whatever reason (and your exsmple is actually a good one) that's OK and must be followed. Take for instance the FDA that heavily heavily regulates the US market. I could argue that I as a customer should be able to choose myself what I eat and drink, yet that's not the case. You may call that cartel, mafia, whatever you want but it's how administrations work..

bergie 12y ago

The taxis here in Berlin even have an app that is quite similar to how you order an Uber. Though of course you still have to pay at the end of the ride with cash or card.

addandsubtract 12y ago
You can pay your taxi ride in app as well. [1] [1] https://de.mytaxi.com/en/fahrgast.html https://de.mytaxi.com/en/fahrgast.html