8 ms·

I live in Germany and i am happy that some things are more regulated here. I like that Taxi companies need to have extra insurance and the cars and drivers are

by Smrchy 12y ago

I live in Germany and i am happy that some things are more regulated here. I like that Taxi companies need to have extra insurance and the cars and drivers are checked on a regular basis. Just like the TÜV (a mandatory checkup every two years for every vehicle) makes sure all vehicles have functioning lights, brakes, proper tires etc. This ruling only makes sure Uber follows those same rules other transportation businesses follow as well. There is competition in the transportation business here but there is no room for people sidestepping completely sane rules everybody should agree on. I am in no way affiliated with the taxi business and i like lower fares too. But not at the cost of safety and less checks for cars and drivers. Once Uber agrees to comply i am happy to use their app and their drivers. I doubt they will be able to operate much cheaper though - i am fine with that.

golemotron 12y ago
> I like that Taxi companies need to have extra insurance and the cars and drivers are checked on a regular basis. Just like the TÜV (a mandatory checkup every two years for every vehicle) makes sure all vehicles have functioning lights, brakes, proper tires etc. Maybe it makes you happy, but is it necessary? I doubt that it is. It seems like regulation for very little purpose. Accidents due to brake failure are exceedingly rare, and police will see if your lights are out (more frequently than once every two years). Shouldn't regulation should be about more than warm fuzzy feelings?
- hibbelig 12y ago
  The mandatory vehicle checkup (TÜV) does more than check the lights. They also check whether the car is structurally sound -- any broken beams or similar. I'm happy that they exist.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > I doubt that it is. I worked on cars a lot, old ones, newer ones and everything in between (oldest: 1961 Mini, newest, my VW bus from 2007). Cars that are used more frequently and that do lots of stops/starts wear faster and tend to fail more frequently than cars that are used infrequently (within limits, letting a car sit for years and then using it is also not good). Typical wear items: boots, joints, brakes (pads/discs), clutch, handbrake, steering housing and associated items (tie rod ends!), all consumables (including fluids, filters), lights (police telling you your lights are out is too late), safety belts, structural elements (rust, badly repaired accident damage) and on and on. Having those inspected more frequently when you operate a car (many taxis are operated in shifts and I don't see any reason why uberpop drivers could not share a car for maximum profits) for the purpose of transporting passengers is in my opinion not a luxury. On occasion I go by cab here in Romania and I'm always very happy to be alive at my destination, the number and severity of accidents involving cabs here is simply scary. Give me German regulated cabs any time over the cabs here, possibly Uber could improve on that but I'm sceptical about what Uber pop would look like here.
- CaptainZapp 12y ago
  Shouldn't regulation should be about more than warm fuzzy feelings? Absolutely! In this case the regulation determines streetworthyness of a vehicle, which is considered part of public transport infrastructure. I, for one, rather get a cab, which is regularly checked and safe to be driven. Would you suggest that Ryan Air, since they are the cheapest airline far and wide, should flout regulation, which aims at ensuring the airworthyness of their fleet, so that they can offer cheap tickets?
- axx 12y ago
  There're A LOT of checks your car has to pass in germany. The "TÜV" (the "institute" that checks cars) are pretty hard on every car to make sure that the car is secure and safe. But not only that, if you have holes in your exhaust and it makes awful noises, you need to fix it. If the rubbers on your windshield wipers is in a bad condition, you need to fix them. If certain parts of your suspension or the steering mechanics wiggle and wobble, you need to fix them. After each 2-year check you have a certain time to get your car fixed. After everything is fixed, you'll get some kind of license plate sticker with the next TÜV-expiration date (very hard to copy). The Police will check those stickers regulary (if they see your car) and if it's invalid they'll stop you and you have to pay a big fee. IMHO this is a good thing. Sure there are some stupid rules in place, but overall it makes the streets safer. And if you look at german roads, most cars are in perfect condition, even the older ones. And as someone mentioned before, those rules are even harder enforeced on transportation companies or taxi drivers.
  - wooter 12y ago
    screw people that can't afford to fix their windshield wiper at the moment... fine them.
    - MandieD 12y ago
      If they can't afford to fix their windshield wipers (15 EUR at most for new rubber blades), then there's no way they can afford to drive in Germany on a regular basis. 12 gallons of gasoline is around 75 EUR, or $100. And TÜV costs about 70 or 80 EUR - not to mention the annual car registration fees. So, yes, if you cannot manage to fix your windshield wipers, your car should not be on the road. Take the bus.
      - axx 12y ago
        I agree. Owning a car in germany is pretty expensive. I pay 1200-1300 euros per year (insurance + tax) + money for gas.
        12y ago
jnardiello 12y ago
Genuine question: Is Uber really cheaper than taxi? Honestly: in Italy it's not. It's hell expensive, probably a bit more expensive than usual cabs - which are incredibly expensive by definition. So yeah, this "We are a startup", "Silicon Valley" thing is just a horrible excuse to avoid complying with regulations. If regulations in Silicon Valley (or wherever else) allow Uber business model to be sustainable, good for them. This isn't something obvious when you go international and it is part of the challenge. Simply not giving a fuck is just mediocre and you deserve to cease operations. Period.
- davidw 12y ago
  Not complying with regulations is pretty popular here in Italy, too! Indeed, there are so many regulations, that being able to get away with not complying with them is a distinct competitive advantage, and the market has, in many places, selected for companies and individuals whose skills mostly lie in that direction, rather than actually creating value.
  - rbobby 12y ago
    See: Berlusconi
- richthegeek 12y ago
  In Manchester, UK they absolutely are. Especially at night: what would be a £20 ride in a hackney and a £15 fare for a pre-booked company is about £10 with Uber. That's for 5 miles in 20 minutes. Add onto that the ease-of-use and some level of assurance that if your cabbie takes you round the houses you can get a refund and it's a no brainer round here.
  - robgough 12y ago
    While the plural of anecdote is not data, I've seen pretty much these exact same figures. The Uber's here look identical to our normal private hire taxi's though, so I'm assuming their drivers are in fact legally compliant? For the record, all the drivers I've spoken to have worked for a local company beforehand and, while earning about the same amount, are far happier now.
smsm42 12y ago
Is there any evidence Uber is actually less safe? I mean beyond the fact that a man blessed by state aegis checks taxi's breaks while regular plebeian mechanics do the same for Uber, what is the evidence Uber is sidestepping completely sane rules and not just red tape made to look like sane rules? Not anecdotes like "Uber driver did X" - I'm sure for each such anecdote one can find "taxi driver did X" but real data on the scale of Germany - or any other scale like this?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Well, Uber will never have an accident. It will always be some guy who happened to have a friend on board. That's the beauty of it, you are offering a professional service but the moment there is any kind of trouble you can fall back on being a private individual driving his car.
  - smsm42 12y ago
    You realize you are avoiding the question. It would be very easy to assemble such statistics as Uber drivers are clearly identified and any court could easily request data about all Uber driving requests (anonymized if there are privacy concerns) and correlate them with reports of traffic incidents. I suspect, however, that there is no such data, and nobody even ever cared about gathering such data - local cartels screamed to local politicians for help, and politicians obliged by protecting the cartel from competition. All talks about "safety" is just as smokescreen as nobody actually did any safety studies and has any data. Otherwise we'd seen that data plastered everywhere, taxi cartels wouldn't miss that chance if they had it.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      > You realize you are avoiding the question. No, you're entirely missing my point. Uber does not exist as such, it is just an app. It does not have drivers on its payroll, it does not have a fleet of cars, it does not have - nor does it likely want - to collect accident statistics. And as for that cartel, there is as far as I can see no such thing. All there is are a bunch of laws that Uber could choose to honour but has chosen not to. If they comply with those rules and they are still banned then you could argue about cartels and such, until then that is premature.
shangxiao 12y ago
Although not a fan of Über, I'm glad taxis are being disrupted in Australia! Taxis are a joke, there are regular complaints about credit card skimming (including myself!) and reports of unsafe driving, sexual harassment and refusals to accept rides if not in the driver's best interest.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- wooter 12y ago
  but, the state gave them a sticker and collected fees so...
bobcostas55 12y ago
I am in no way affiliated with Uber and I like safery and checks for car and drivers too. But not at the cost of restrictive government-granted monopolies and crony capitalism.
zobzu 12y ago
i lived in germany for several years - and taxi drivers werent even nearly as good or making me feel nearly as safe as uber drivers. its like 30% of the taxi drivers are pure assholes in berlin/hamburg. (heck its not so different in other big international cities). I had hundred of uber drives and not a single bad or even sub-optimal ride. Thus I very strongly disagree with your statement. On a side note, taxi stuff works like a mafia - a "legal" version of it. The regulations enforces that - not the safety of anybody.
- zeeed 12y ago
  Yup, agreed, yet customer satisfaction doesn't cover for you in case of an accident. And since cab companies comply with the regulations what Uber is trying is to create an unfair competition by ignoring them. So the way to do it is to follow regulations first and then find a way to 'disrupt'. Yes, that might slow down the growth. Thats probably why they chose to ignore it and that's why now the state is hitting them back. Actually this is business as usual. Uber will continue to fight the decision, a compromise will be found and the prices will go down, which is good for the customer.
andreasklinger 12y ago
100% agree. One thing that confuses me a bit - isn't Uber in Europe focusing on professional limousine drivers? Shouldn't they be checked&regulated anyhow? It's understandable that something like UberX wouldn't work in countries like in the SW/A/G area. We have those regulations in place for good reasons. I am sure they will find ways to comply. ps: sorry for writing sw/a/g for switzerland/austria/germany - instead of the german d/a/ch - as soon as it's in your head you can't get it out there anymore. ;)
- derwildemomo 12y ago
  Yesterday, I tried uber in berlin for the first time. It was a professional limousine driver, with insurance and a permit to work as a driver. So, for uber black that's true, while it's not for uberpop. i guess uberpop is really the problem.
  - Xylakant 12y ago
    UberBlack is not affected by this injunction, so yes.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Correct, this only affects Uber Pop as far as I can see. Which is exactly the reason they got sued by the association.
nb1981 12y ago
+1. Exactly. Not all legislation is bad.

by Smrchy 12y ago

golemotron 12y ago

> I like that Taxi companies need to have extra insurance and the cars and drivers are checked on a regular basis. Just like the TÜV (a mandatory checkup every two years for every vehicle) makes sure all vehicles have functioning lights, brakes, proper tires etc. Maybe it makes you happy, but is it necessary? I doubt that it is. It seems like regulation for very little purpose. Accidents due to brake failure are exceedingly rare, and police will see if your lights are out (more frequently than once every two years). Shouldn't regulation should be about more than warm fuzzy feelings?

hibbelig 12y ago
The mandatory vehicle checkup (TÜV) does more than check the lights. They also check whether the car is structurally sound -- any broken beams or similar. I'm happy that they exist.
jacquesm 12y ago
> I doubt that it is. I worked on cars a lot, old ones, newer ones and everything in between (oldest: 1961 Mini, newest, my VW bus from 2007). Cars that are used more frequently and that do lots of stops/starts wear faster and tend to fail more frequently than cars that are used infrequently (within limits, letting a car sit for years and then using it is also not good). Typical wear items: boots, joints, brakes (pads/discs), clutch, handbrake, steering housing and associated items (tie rod ends!), all consumables (including fluids, filters), lights (police telling you your lights are out is too late), safety belts, structural elements (rust, badly repaired accident damage) and on and on. Having those inspected more frequently when you operate a car (many taxis are operated in shifts and I don't see any reason why uberpop drivers could not share a car for maximum profits) for the purpose of transporting passengers is in my opinion not a luxury. On occasion I go by cab here in Romania and I'm always very happy to be alive at my destination, the number and severity of accidents involving cabs here is simply scary. Give me German regulated cabs any time over the cabs here, possibly Uber could improve on that but I'm sceptical about what Uber pop would look like here.
CaptainZapp 12y ago
Shouldn't regulation should be about more than warm fuzzy feelings? Absolutely! In this case the regulation determines streetworthyness of a vehicle, which is considered part of public transport infrastructure. I, for one, rather get a cab, which is regularly checked and safe to be driven. Would you suggest that Ryan Air, since they are the cheapest airline far and wide, should flout regulation, which aims at ensuring the airworthyness of their fleet, so that they can offer cheap tickets?
axx 12y ago
There're A LOT of checks your car has to pass in germany. The "TÜV" (the "institute" that checks cars) are pretty hard on every car to make sure that the car is secure and safe. But not only that, if you have holes in your exhaust and it makes awful noises, you need to fix it. If the rubbers on your windshield wipers is in a bad condition, you need to fix them. If certain parts of your suspension or the steering mechanics wiggle and wobble, you need to fix them. After each 2-year check you have a certain time to get your car fixed. After everything is fixed, you'll get some kind of license plate sticker with the next TÜV-expiration date (very hard to copy). The Police will check those stickers regulary (if they see your car) and if it's invalid they'll stop you and you have to pay a big fee. IMHO this is a good thing. Sure there are some stupid rules in place, but overall it makes the streets safer. And if you look at german roads, most cars are in perfect condition, even the older ones. And as someone mentioned before, those rules are even harder enforeced on transportation companies or taxi drivers.
- wooter 12y ago
  screw people that can't afford to fix their windshield wiper at the moment... fine them.
  - MandieD 12y ago
    If they can't afford to fix their windshield wipers (15 EUR at most for new rubber blades), then there's no way they can afford to drive in Germany on a regular basis. 12 gallons of gasoline is around 75 EUR, or $100. And TÜV costs about 70 or 80 EUR - not to mention the annual car registration fees. So, yes, if you cannot manage to fix your windshield wipers, your car should not be on the road. Take the bus.
    - axx 12y ago
      I agree. Owning a car in germany is pretty expensive. I pay 1200-1300 euros per year (insurance + tax) + money for gas.
      - 12y ago

jnardiello 12y ago

Genuine question: Is Uber really cheaper than taxi? Honestly: in Italy it's not. It's hell expensive, probably a bit more expensive than usual cabs - which are incredibly expensive by definition. So yeah, this "We are a startup", "Silicon Valley" thing is just a horrible excuse to avoid complying with regulations. If regulations in Silicon Valley (or wherever else) allow Uber business model to be sustainable, good for them. This isn't something obvious when you go international and it is part of the challenge. Simply not giving a fuck is just mediocre and you deserve to cease operations. Period.

davidw 12y ago
Not complying with regulations is pretty popular here in Italy, too! Indeed, there are so many regulations, that being able to get away with not complying with them is a distinct competitive advantage, and the market has, in many places, selected for companies and individuals whose skills mostly lie in that direction, rather than actually creating value.
- rbobby 12y ago
  See: Berlusconi
richthegeek 12y ago
In Manchester, UK they absolutely are. Especially at night: what would be a £20 ride in a hackney and a £15 fare for a pre-booked company is about £10 with Uber. That's for 5 miles in 20 minutes. Add onto that the ease-of-use and some level of assurance that if your cabbie takes you round the houses you can get a refund and it's a no brainer round here.
- robgough 12y ago
  While the plural of anecdote is not data, I've seen pretty much these exact same figures. The Uber's here look identical to our normal private hire taxi's though, so I'm assuming their drivers are in fact legally compliant? For the record, all the drivers I've spoken to have worked for a local company beforehand and, while earning about the same amount, are far happier now.

smsm42 12y ago

Is there any evidence Uber is actually less safe? I mean beyond the fact that a man blessed by state aegis checks taxi's breaks while regular plebeian mechanics do the same for Uber, what is the evidence Uber is sidestepping completely sane rules and not just red tape made to look like sane rules? Not anecdotes like "Uber driver did X" - I'm sure for each such anecdote one can find "taxi driver did X" but real data on the scale of Germany - or any other scale like this?

jacquesm 12y ago
Well, Uber will never have an accident. It will always be some guy who happened to have a friend on board. That's the beauty of it, you are offering a professional service but the moment there is any kind of trouble you can fall back on being a private individual driving his car.
- smsm42 12y ago
  You realize you are avoiding the question. It would be very easy to assemble such statistics as Uber drivers are clearly identified and any court could easily request data about all Uber driving requests (anonymized if there are privacy concerns) and correlate them with reports of traffic incidents. I suspect, however, that there is no such data, and nobody even ever cared about gathering such data - local cartels screamed to local politicians for help, and politicians obliged by protecting the cartel from competition. All talks about "safety" is just as smokescreen as nobody actually did any safety studies and has any data. Otherwise we'd seen that data plastered everywhere, taxi cartels wouldn't miss that chance if they had it.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    > You realize you are avoiding the question. No, you're entirely missing my point. Uber does not exist as such, it is just an app. It does not have drivers on its payroll, it does not have a fleet of cars, it does not have - nor does it likely want - to collect accident statistics. And as for that cartel, there is as far as I can see no such thing. All there is are a bunch of laws that Uber could choose to honour but has chosen not to. If they comply with those rules and they are still banned then you could argue about cartels and such, until then that is premature.

shangxiao 12y ago

Although not a fan of Über, I'm glad taxis are being disrupted in Australia! Taxis are a joke, there are regular complaints about credit card skimming (including myself!) and reports of unsafe driving, sexual harassment and refusals to accept rides if not in the driver's best interest.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
wooter 12y ago
but, the state gave them a sticker and collected fees so...

bobcostas55 12y ago

I am in no way affiliated with Uber and I like safery and checks for car and drivers too. But not at the cost of restrictive government-granted monopolies and crony capitalism.

zobzu 12y ago

i lived in germany for several years - and taxi drivers werent even nearly as good or making me feel nearly as safe as uber drivers. its like 30% of the taxi drivers are pure assholes in berlin/hamburg. (heck its not so different in other big international cities). I had hundred of uber drives and not a single bad or even sub-optimal ride. Thus I very strongly disagree with your statement. On a side note, taxi stuff works like a mafia - a "legal" version of it. The regulations enforces that - not the safety of anybody.

zeeed 12y ago
Yup, agreed, yet customer satisfaction doesn't cover for you in case of an accident. And since cab companies comply with the regulations what Uber is trying is to create an unfair competition by ignoring them. So the way to do it is to follow regulations first and then find a way to 'disrupt'. Yes, that might slow down the growth. Thats probably why they chose to ignore it and that's why now the state is hitting them back. Actually this is business as usual. Uber will continue to fight the decision, a compromise will be found and the prices will go down, which is good for the customer.

andreasklinger 12y ago

100% agree. One thing that confuses me a bit - isn't Uber in Europe focusing on professional limousine drivers? Shouldn't they be checked&regulated anyhow? It's understandable that something like UberX wouldn't work in countries like in the SW/A/G area. We have those regulations in place for good reasons. I am sure they will find ways to comply. ps: sorry for writing sw/a/g for switzerland/austria/germany - instead of the german d/a/ch - as soon as it's in your head you can't get it out there anymore. ;)

derwildemomo 12y ago
Yesterday, I tried uber in berlin for the first time. It was a professional limousine driver, with insurance and a permit to work as a driver. So, for uber black that's true, while it's not for uberpop. i guess uberpop is really the problem.
- Xylakant 12y ago
  UberBlack is not affected by this injunction, so yes.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Correct, this only affects Uber Pop as far as I can see. Which is exactly the reason they got sued by the association.

nb1981 12y ago

+1. Exactly. Not all legislation is bad.