4 ms·

IMO, any company that asks employees to work more than 40 hours a week and doesn't pay for those hours is doing 'wage theft'. Classifying employees as exempt se

by akg_67 12y ago

IMO, any company that asks employees to work more than 40 hours a week and doesn't pay for those hours is doing 'wage theft'. Classifying employees as exempt seem to be a common method used by employers. It surprises me how often on HN startup employees claim to work 70-80 hours without any complaints. And, startup employers expect more hours without paying.

Bahamut 12y ago
I recently quit a startup since 60 hour weeks were expected. It made me do a hard self-evaluation and come to the conclusion that no job was worth that for me. 40 hours is an arbitrary number. I think whatever hours is fine, as long as both parties agree on it and are up front about it.
greenyoda 12y ago
In the U.S., the classification of exempt vs. non-exempt employees is specified by federal law, so companies can't just make that decision on their own. Unfortunately, software developers are legally exempted from having to be paid overtime: "More specifically, the special computer employee exemption applies to workers who apply systems analysis techniques and procedures to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications, or who design, develop, test or modify computer systems or programs based on user or design specifications."[1] However, if a startup (or any other company) has non-exempt employees such as clerical workers or cleaning staff, they must be paid overtime if they work over 40 hours a week. Of course, if a company wants to pay a software developer for overtime, they're free to do so. I've never heard of that being done, however. [1] http://www.flsa.com/computer.html http://www.flsa.com/computer.html See also: http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html
- akg_67 12y ago
  There is a lot of leeway in exempt classification. Companies have lot of influence on law making process so I am not surprised that more jobs are considered exempt. Personally, I have seen exempt status being abused by companies. One technology company I worked for classified certain technical roles as exempt until the company merged with another company. I was not purview to the decision making or what led to reversing the decision, but during the merger process, these technical roles were reclassified as non-exempt. From http://www.trinet.com/resources/industry_articles/exempt_vs_nonexempt.htm http://www.trinet.com/resources/industry_articles/exempt_vs_... "In California, employees falling within the computer professionals exemption must be paid at least $39.90 per hour, which translates to a monthly salary of $6,927.75 and an annual salary of $83,132.93 (these figures typically increase every year)." Edit: A better reference - http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/californiaexemptionrequirements.aspx http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/californiaexem...
- drivingmenuts 12y ago
  In Texas, the high-tech exemption kicks in at around $1800 per month, apparently. Which isn't all that great if you live in one of the high-tech centers of Texas. http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/exemptions_from_minimum_wage_and_overtime.html http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/exemptions_from_minimum...
- jasonkester 12y ago
  Of course, if a company wants to pay a software developer for overtime, they're free to do so. I've never heard of that being done, however. I'm going to add this to my list of "Harmful Assumptions That Developers Make". If you assume that what your company does is normal, it's a small leap to classify it in your head as fair. From there, you can go your whole career never expecting something as basic as being paid for every hour you work. But it doesn't have to be that way. I've personally arranged my work contracts such that I've been paid for every hour spent working for a company since around 2001. You, and everybody else in tech, should do the same. We're not fast food workers who need to either take what we're given or face having no job. We're free to pick and choose from the single best market for developer talent that there has ever been.
  - greenyoda 12y ago
    "I've personally arranged my work contracts such that I've been paid for every hour spent working for a company since around 2001." Just curious if you managed to negotiate this as a regular employee, or do you work as an independent contractor?
- aianus 12y ago
  Bloomberg and Twitter both paid interns time-and-a-half overtime when I worked there.
- virmundi 12y ago
  There was once a software consulting firm called Software Architects or SARK. They paid overtime. Not time and a half, but overtime. It was great. That's how I afforded flooring for my house as a recent college grad. They would even buy dinner if I worked over 10 hours in a day. Sadly they were bought by another firm. That firm is not so kind or forward thinking.

by akg_67 12y ago

Bahamut 12y ago

I recently quit a startup since 60 hour weeks were expected. It made me do a hard self-evaluation and come to the conclusion that no job was worth that for me. 40 hours is an arbitrary number. I think whatever hours is fine, as long as both parties agree on it and are up front about it.

greenyoda 12y ago

In the U.S., the classification of exempt vs. non-exempt employees is specified by federal law, so companies can't just make that decision on their own. Unfortunately, software developers are legally exempted from having to be paid overtime: "More specifically, the special computer employee exemption applies to workers who apply systems analysis techniques and procedures to determine hardware, software, or system functional specifications, or who design, develop, test or modify computer systems or programs based on user or design specifications."[1] However, if a startup (or any other company) has non-exempt employees such as clerical workers or cleaning staff, they must be paid overtime if they work over 40 hours a week. Of course, if a company wants to pay a software developer for overtime, they're free to do so. I've never heard of that being done, however. [1] http://www.flsa.com/computer.html http://www.flsa.com/computer.html See also: http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html

akg_67 12y ago
There is a lot of leeway in exempt classification. Companies have lot of influence on law making process so I am not surprised that more jobs are considered exempt. Personally, I have seen exempt status being abused by companies. One technology company I worked for classified certain technical roles as exempt until the company merged with another company. I was not purview to the decision making or what led to reversing the decision, but during the merger process, these technical roles were reclassified as non-exempt. From http://www.trinet.com/resources/industry_articles/exempt_vs_nonexempt.htm http://www.trinet.com/resources/industry_articles/exempt_vs_... "In California, employees falling within the computer professionals exemption must be paid at least $39.90 per hour, which translates to a monthly salary of $6,927.75 and an annual salary of $83,132.93 (these figures typically increase every year)." Edit: A better reference - http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/californiaexemptionrequirements.aspx http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/californiaexem...
drivingmenuts 12y ago
In Texas, the high-tech exemption kicks in at around $1800 per month, apparently. Which isn't all that great if you live in one of the high-tech centers of Texas. http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/exemptions_from_minimum_wage_and_overtime.html http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/exemptions_from_minimum...
jasonkester 12y ago
Of course, if a company wants to pay a software developer for overtime, they're free to do so. I've never heard of that being done, however. I'm going to add this to my list of "Harmful Assumptions That Developers Make". If you assume that what your company does is normal, it's a small leap to classify it in your head as fair. From there, you can go your whole career never expecting something as basic as being paid for every hour you work. But it doesn't have to be that way. I've personally arranged my work contracts such that I've been paid for every hour spent working for a company since around 2001. You, and everybody else in tech, should do the same. We're not fast food workers who need to either take what we're given or face having no job. We're free to pick and choose from the single best market for developer talent that there has ever been.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  "I've personally arranged my work contracts such that I've been paid for every hour spent working for a company since around 2001." Just curious if you managed to negotiate this as a regular employee, or do you work as an independent contractor?
aianus 12y ago
Bloomberg and Twitter both paid interns time-and-a-half overtime when I worked there.
virmundi 12y ago
There was once a software consulting firm called Software Architects or SARK. They paid overtime. Not time and a half, but overtime. It was great. That's how I afforded flooring for my house as a recent college grad. They would even buy dinner if I worked over 10 hours in a day. Sadly they were bought by another firm. That firm is not so kind or forward thinking.