6 ms·

Passenger Pigeon Comeback

37 points by Turukawa 12y ago

psophis 12y ago
There is an RFC for IP via carrier pigeon [0] [0] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149
- yareally 12y ago
  Carrier pigeons, unlike passenger pigeons (which derive their name from the huge sky-darkening flocks they created, making them look like "passengers") are not a species, just a domesticated rock pigeon trained to travel between defined points. Carrier pigeons are still pretty neat though. Cher Ami ("dear friend")[1] saved the lives of thousands during The Great War and was highly respected by both American and French soldiers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cher_Ami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cher_Ami
cjensen 12y ago
The Passenger Pigeon lived in an environment where flocks were found everywhere. An individual pigeon could safely "wander off" and find a new flock. Once the population level descended below a critical level, the species was doomed. In order to bring them back, you would need to breed them by the millions before releasing them. A more practical worry is the Rusty Blackbird, which has declined fast in recent decades and may be headed the way of the Passenger Pigeon.
- crygin 12y ago
  That's commonly cited as fact, but the truth is we don't know that they required large flocks to survive (deforestation is another possibility). Charles Mann points out in his book 1491 that e.g. DeSoto didn't report large groups, and hypothesizes that the enormous flocks of the 1800s are an aberration due to wide-scale crop production.
  - yareally 12y ago
    Another theory is that the decline of Native Americans led to the boom in the numbers of passenger pigeons (since many Eastern Tribes considered them a primary food source). However, the nesting habits and mating rituals of birds in general are complex and subject to change (such as purple martins traditionally living under cliffs and in caves to now living almost entirely in man made boxes). It may have been true that passenger pigeons did not travel in large flocks when DeSoto was exploring the Mississippi in the 16th Century, but events between then and the extinction of the species may have altered their behavior. However, if the species is brought back, there is always the chance their behavior may change again (as it may have before) and large flocks may not be a requirement for their survival anymore. That trait was likely passed on through shared behavior and likely would not affect newborn pigeons with no existing relatives. Also the fact that there have been huge advancements in genetics and breeding of animals since the attempts of saving them in the early 20th century.
    - gadders 12y ago
      I think the most amazing change of habitat for a bird is the Rock Dove [1], otherwise known as the pigeon that you find in cities everywhere. Their original habitat was rocky cliffs and coastlines. [1]https://www.rspb.org.uk/discoverandenjoynature/discoverandlearn/birdguide/name/r/rockdove/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/discoverandenjoynature/discoverandle...
nsxwolf 12y ago
Please don't bring that asshole bird back to life.
- wyager 12y ago
  I am curious why people are so fixated on reviving extinct species (or saving species on their way out) except as an academic exercise.
  - HelloMcFly 12y ago
    I recommend reading the book Wild Ones if this question actually fascinates you.
  - yareally 12y ago
    I hope your question is more from the lack of knowing or curiosity than not seeing that many of these species are only extinct or on the brink of extinction because humanity could not be bothered to be a little considerate while modernizing. I'm all for progress, but when we trample on other humans or other species just to save a little time or money, it's kind of saddening. I always thought that because we have the ability to care about the survival of species other than our own that it contributes to what makes us "human." Some animals may care in way because certain species are an important food source, but we've come to care about animals for reasons beyond that. The extinction of the passenger pigeon was no accident or even carelessness. People literally hunted them at an industrial scale with large nets at their nesting sites (many ended up as canned food for the military or railroad workers). The passenger pigeon is not even closely related to the sometimes reviled rock pigeon that inhabits Europe and as a non-native invasive species in North America. Instead, it is a close relative of the North American mourning dove. I assume that is why this commenter[0] has a "knee-jerk" dislike of the passenger pigeon with no explanation given. Passenger pigeons were perhaps the most numerous bird to ever exist and yes, while they did primarily eat seeds, so do many other living species including the European house sparrow brought to North America around 150 years ago. House sparrows and other species have mostly filled the niche that the native passenger pigeon once inhabited. I mean house sparrows are so numerous in North America that most people do not even realize there are a couple dozen native species of sparrows here that are only distantly related[1][2]. Unlike their distant European relative, these native sparrows tend to be prettier and less numerous due to being territorial in breeding pairs all year round, though some sparrow species[1] will flock together during migration. This might sound like something made up, but the house sparrow, along with the European Starling were brought over to North America by some guy that wanted all the birds of Shakespeare's plays to inhabit the New World. Ironically, both species are now in decline throughout the Old World while they dominate and displace species that rely on nest boxes and nest cavities in the New World. The movement in the past 50 years to put up nest boxes for blue birds, purple martins and other native species in North America was at least partially motivated by trying to shore up their populations as many were threatened in the past. Another species that met a tragic demise that could have been saved was the ivory billed woodpecker[3] in the early 1900s. The ivory billed was the largest woodpecker in North America (about the size of a crow), with the still living pilated woodpecker a close second (both resemble Woody the Woodpecker). Efforts were made to have its last refuge made a protected forest, but ended up going nowhere as elected officials considered the wood in the forests to be more worth while. There's been unverified sightings by people that claim the ivory-billed still exists in remote locations in the Southern United States. It's more likely those that claim to have seen it really saw a pilated woodpecker, as no images or recordings have been made by those that claimed to have seen it. There was also a lesser known parrot[4] that lived in the temperate Eastern/Southern United States that died out around the same time as the two mentioned above. The Carolina Parakeet lived as far north as Ohio and was the only native parrot in the continental United States. Reasons for its extinction are a bit more complicated, though it has been partially attributed to deforestation and the spread of the European honey bee in North America as they competed for nesting cavities in trees (random fun fact that honey bees are not native to the New World). Many birds are considered a prime indicator of the health of the environment around them as well, due to wide variety of foods they eat and the elaborate nesting/mating rituals some go through that can be disturbed when things are thrown out of balance. I'm only in my late 20s, but I've always had an interest in birds and studying them is sort of a hobby of mine. They're one of the few animals in the wild you can see on a daily basis and many of them are as intelligent as primates (such as crows/ravens/rooks, certain parrots and jays). I can pull up other references for anyone interested on where I found the info above, but it takes a bit of time. A good starting point is the Cornell Ornithology site linked below though[1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8255389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8255389 [1] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/white-crowned_sparrow/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/white-crowned_sparrow/id [2] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/White-throated_Sparrow/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/White-throated_Sparrow/id [3] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/i... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet
ejp 12y ago
Slightly OT: If you ever happen to be in Oklahoma City, the American Pigeon Museum[0] is a nice diversion - larger than you'd think, and lots of interesting tidbits to be had, including history on the passenger pigeon. I saw it in passing on an unrelated trip, but it turned into the best story to tell from OKC. [0] http://www.theamericanpigeonmuseum.org/ http://www.theamericanpigeonmuseum.org/
gadders 12y ago
If I had to, I would stake money on a Woolly Mammoth* being brought back in my lifetime. I'm 43. * This includes an elephant/mammoth hybrid/chimera.

37 points by Turukawa 12y ago

psophis 12y ago

There is an RFC for IP via carrier pigeon [0] [0] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149

yareally 12y ago
Carrier pigeons, unlike passenger pigeons (which derive their name from the huge sky-darkening flocks they created, making them look like "passengers") are not a species, just a domesticated rock pigeon trained to travel between defined points. Carrier pigeons are still pretty neat though. Cher Ami ("dear friend")[1] saved the lives of thousands during The Great War and was highly respected by both American and French soldiers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cher_Ami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cher_Ami

cjensen 12y ago

The Passenger Pigeon lived in an environment where flocks were found everywhere. An individual pigeon could safely "wander off" and find a new flock. Once the population level descended below a critical level, the species was doomed. In order to bring them back, you would need to breed them by the millions before releasing them. A more practical worry is the Rusty Blackbird, which has declined fast in recent decades and may be headed the way of the Passenger Pigeon.

crygin 12y ago
That's commonly cited as fact, but the truth is we don't know that they required large flocks to survive (deforestation is another possibility). Charles Mann points out in his book 1491 that e.g. DeSoto didn't report large groups, and hypothesizes that the enormous flocks of the 1800s are an aberration due to wide-scale crop production.
- yareally 12y ago
  Another theory is that the decline of Native Americans led to the boom in the numbers of passenger pigeons (since many Eastern Tribes considered them a primary food source). However, the nesting habits and mating rituals of birds in general are complex and subject to change (such as purple martins traditionally living under cliffs and in caves to now living almost entirely in man made boxes). It may have been true that passenger pigeons did not travel in large flocks when DeSoto was exploring the Mississippi in the 16th Century, but events between then and the extinction of the species may have altered their behavior. However, if the species is brought back, there is always the chance their behavior may change again (as it may have before) and large flocks may not be a requirement for their survival anymore. That trait was likely passed on through shared behavior and likely would not affect newborn pigeons with no existing relatives. Also the fact that there have been huge advancements in genetics and breeding of animals since the attempts of saving them in the early 20th century.
  - gadders 12y ago
    I think the most amazing change of habitat for a bird is the Rock Dove [1], otherwise known as the pigeon that you find in cities everywhere. Their original habitat was rocky cliffs and coastlines. [1]https://www.rspb.org.uk/discoverandenjoynature/discoverandlearn/birdguide/name/r/rockdove/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/discoverandenjoynature/discoverandle...

nsxwolf 12y ago

Please don't bring that asshole bird back to life.

wyager 12y ago
I am curious why people are so fixated on reviving extinct species (or saving species on their way out) except as an academic exercise.
- HelloMcFly 12y ago
  I recommend reading the book Wild Ones if this question actually fascinates you.
- yareally 12y ago
  I hope your question is more from the lack of knowing or curiosity than not seeing that many of these species are only extinct or on the brink of extinction because humanity could not be bothered to be a little considerate while modernizing. I'm all for progress, but when we trample on other humans or other species just to save a little time or money, it's kind of saddening. I always thought that because we have the ability to care about the survival of species other than our own that it contributes to what makes us "human." Some animals may care in way because certain species are an important food source, but we've come to care about animals for reasons beyond that. The extinction of the passenger pigeon was no accident or even carelessness. People literally hunted them at an industrial scale with large nets at their nesting sites (many ended up as canned food for the military or railroad workers). The passenger pigeon is not even closely related to the sometimes reviled rock pigeon that inhabits Europe and as a non-native invasive species in North America. Instead, it is a close relative of the North American mourning dove. I assume that is why this commenter[0] has a "knee-jerk" dislike of the passenger pigeon with no explanation given. Passenger pigeons were perhaps the most numerous bird to ever exist and yes, while they did primarily eat seeds, so do many other living species including the European house sparrow brought to North America around 150 years ago. House sparrows and other species have mostly filled the niche that the native passenger pigeon once inhabited. I mean house sparrows are so numerous in North America that most people do not even realize there are a couple dozen native species of sparrows here that are only distantly related[1][2]. Unlike their distant European relative, these native sparrows tend to be prettier and less numerous due to being territorial in breeding pairs all year round, though some sparrow species[1] will flock together during migration. This might sound like something made up, but the house sparrow, along with the European Starling were brought over to North America by some guy that wanted all the birds of Shakespeare's plays to inhabit the New World. Ironically, both species are now in decline throughout the Old World while they dominate and displace species that rely on nest boxes and nest cavities in the New World. The movement in the past 50 years to put up nest boxes for blue birds, purple martins and other native species in North America was at least partially motivated by trying to shore up their populations as many were threatened in the past. Another species that met a tragic demise that could have been saved was the ivory billed woodpecker[3] in the early 1900s. The ivory billed was the largest woodpecker in North America (about the size of a crow), with the still living pilated woodpecker a close second (both resemble Woody the Woodpecker). Efforts were made to have its last refuge made a protected forest, but ended up going nowhere as elected officials considered the wood in the forests to be more worth while. There's been unverified sightings by people that claim the ivory-billed still exists in remote locations in the Southern United States. It's more likely those that claim to have seen it really saw a pilated woodpecker, as no images or recordings have been made by those that claimed to have seen it. There was also a lesser known parrot[4] that lived in the temperate Eastern/Southern United States that died out around the same time as the two mentioned above. The Carolina Parakeet lived as far north as Ohio and was the only native parrot in the continental United States. Reasons for its extinction are a bit more complicated, though it has been partially attributed to deforestation and the spread of the European honey bee in North America as they competed for nesting cavities in trees (random fun fact that honey bees are not native to the New World). Many birds are considered a prime indicator of the health of the environment around them as well, due to wide variety of foods they eat and the elaborate nesting/mating rituals some go through that can be disturbed when things are thrown out of balance. I'm only in my late 20s, but I've always had an interest in birds and studying them is sort of a hobby of mine. They're one of the few animals in the wild you can see on a daily basis and many of them are as intelligent as primates (such as crows/ravens/rooks, certain parrots and jays). I can pull up other references for anyone interested on where I found the info above, but it takes a bit of time. A good starting point is the Cornell Ornithology site linked below though[1]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8255389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8255389 [1] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/white-crowned_sparrow/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/white-crowned_sparrow/id [2] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/White-throated_Sparrow/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/White-throated_Sparrow/id [3] http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/id http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Ivory-billed_Woodpecker/i... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_parakeet

ejp 12y ago

Slightly OT: If you ever happen to be in Oklahoma City, the American Pigeon Museum[0] is a nice diversion - larger than you'd think, and lots of interesting tidbits to be had, including history on the passenger pigeon. I saw it in passing on an unrelated trip, but it turned into the best story to tell from OKC. [0] http://www.theamericanpigeonmuseum.org/ http://www.theamericanpigeonmuseum.org/

gadders 12y ago

If I had to, I would stake money on a Woolly Mammoth* being brought back in my lifetime. I'm 43. * This includes an elephant/mammoth hybrid/chimera.