4 ms·

if the ruling is upheld, web services that face legal discovery like google, dropbox, facebook, microsoft, etc will face an amazing burden of data retention cos

if the ruling is upheld, web services that face legal discovery like google, dropbox, facebook, microsoft, etc will face an amazing burden of data retention cost. there is an amazing tax already on these services having to implement per government specific retention policies based on where they do business. for example in ireland, by law you need to be able to produce up to a year of content even if an account has been deleted. in the u.s. the period is much shorter. so if other countries create similar legislation after seeing a u.s. version of this law stick, everyone will have to implement a myriad of retention policies, or worst case retention, in every datacenter they operate. it drives up cost and complexity in the services. this might not be popular to say, but microsoft taking a stand here is an amazingly good thing for our industry.

tracker1 12y ago
That said, I don't think this has much to do with protecting MS's customers, or for that matter standing up for them as it is presented. I'm pretty sure it's more about MS operations being able to continue to run in Ireland and the rest of the EU. If MS hands this data over, you can be assured that MS would face stiff penalties and restrictions to even be able to operate in the EU, and would likely have their Azure facilities shut down as a result. MS is stuck between a rock and a hard place here, no doubt, and I think it's important for this stand to be made. Hopefully sanity will prevail here... I don't think the U.S. government would appreciate if Google were forced to turn over the Google Apps data of scientific universities to China because of a court order there.
- Irish 12y ago
  I don't think the foreign country would care unless it was data that was owned or related to an entity in that country. Its an american owned and operated data center in Irelend (where I live). Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess) so there dosn't seem to be anything to spark the interest of the Irish legislature. Unless you make the leap to the point that now america can just demand ALL the data in that data center which you certainly could. This isn't really the same as a warrant either is it? They are not demanding to be allowed access to or to search the data center. Microsoft in America is being ordered to hand over a document that they have access to, where that document is seems irrelevant (just playing devils advocate). Also the chances of any small to medium sized nation (particularly Ireland) getting on their high horses about this is quite unlikely due to the amount of money these large multi-nationals bring here. In fact if this is upheld I imagine it would be another boon for Ireland as the american companies will have to set up even more infrastructure so that they can argue that its a completely separate entity that they simply funnel customers to or whatever. If the companies act first they could even get favorable Irish legislation passed to prevent the type of treaty talked about in the article (although this would be a pretty ballsy move for Ireland)
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess) Indeed, sounds like a dubious assumption to me.
  - justincormack 12y ago
    It is the EU notbIreland that sets the framework for the legislation. Ireland has little choice.
- AndyNemmity 12y ago
  My work is very much involving this, and it does have to do with protecting customers, because those customers won't exist unless Microsoft stands up to this. It's very much an issue with all companies that are non-US. That's why my company is putting datacenters everywhere. Chinese demand a Chinese data center for Cloud computing. This happens all over the world, and our strategy is all about that. This is a very real issue, and if the US states that any US company has to turn over data, you can kiss every customer from another country goodbye. It's an extremely serious situation in my view.
  - jodrellblank 12y ago
    This is a very real issue, and if the US states that any US company has to turn over data, you can kiss every customer from another country goodbye. It's not as if Microsoft is selling access to the highest bidder, or considering a request from another company or a charity. Turning over specific data in the face of a court order is not going to drive every customer away, many will see that as acceptable, low risk, reasonable behaviour.
    - nl 12y ago
      That's actually not the case. I've worked on many bid (on both sides of the table) where US based hosting was forbidden either by the bid process or by law (the new Australian privacy legislation makes it much simpler to keep data on-shore). At the moment many companies just resort to using the Australian Amazon data centre, and everyone is ok. If MS loses this case, I'd say 70% of those (enterprise) contracts using Amazon will use a non-US-owned provider simply because the risk is yet another things that has to be overcome.
    - AndyNemmity 12y ago
      Turning over specific data due to a court order will drive every enterprise customer away. Without question.
jkestner 12y ago
If data retention becomes a liability, will companies be forced to consider encrypting data or taking measures to ensure they don't ever see it, and thereby upend their business models? Or will governments require them to have a backdoor to the data?
- AndyNemmity 12y ago
  The initial impact is companies from other countries will refuse to work with any company outside of their perceived comfort zone. Take a company from Qatar. Perhaps they are comfortable with any datacenter in the middle east for Cloud Computing with a US company. If this becomes standard US law, they won't accept a US company for any reason. Thus every US company loses the customer, the profit, the business and it's replaced by others. It's that simple. And what about companies that are from another country, but have US entities? It's just a massive issue that could destroy corporate cloud computing.

tracker1 12y ago

That said, I don't think this has much to do with protecting MS's customers, or for that matter standing up for them as it is presented. I'm pretty sure it's more about MS operations being able to continue to run in Ireland and the rest of the EU. If MS hands this data over, you can be assured that MS would face stiff penalties and restrictions to even be able to operate in the EU, and would likely have their Azure facilities shut down as a result. MS is stuck between a rock and a hard place here, no doubt, and I think it's important for this stand to be made. Hopefully sanity will prevail here... I don't think the U.S. government would appreciate if Google were forced to turn over the Google Apps data of scientific universities to China because of a court order there.

Irish 12y ago
I don't think the foreign country would care unless it was data that was owned or related to an entity in that country. Its an american owned and operated data center in Irelend (where I live). Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess) so there dosn't seem to be anything to spark the interest of the Irish legislature. Unless you make the leap to the point that now america can just demand ALL the data in that data center which you certainly could. This isn't really the same as a warrant either is it? They are not demanding to be allowed access to or to search the data center. Microsoft in America is being ordered to hand over a document that they have access to, where that document is seems irrelevant (just playing devils advocate). Also the chances of any small to medium sized nation (particularly Ireland) getting on their high horses about this is quite unlikely due to the amount of money these large multi-nationals bring here. In fact if this is upheld I imagine it would be another boon for Ireland as the american companies will have to set up even more infrastructure so that they can argue that its a completely separate entity that they simply funnel customers to or whatever. If the companies act first they could even get favorable Irish legislation passed to prevent the type of treaty talked about in the article (although this would be a pretty ballsy move for Ireland)
- icebraining 12y ago
  Presumably the email is 'owned' by an american and the case involves all american actors(cant really make that assumption I guess) Indeed, sounds like a dubious assumption to me.
- justincormack 12y ago
  It is the EU notbIreland that sets the framework for the legislation. Ireland has little choice.
AndyNemmity 12y ago
My work is very much involving this, and it does have to do with protecting customers, because those customers won't exist unless Microsoft stands up to this. It's very much an issue with all companies that are non-US. That's why my company is putting datacenters everywhere. Chinese demand a Chinese data center for Cloud computing. This happens all over the world, and our strategy is all about that. This is a very real issue, and if the US states that any US company has to turn over data, you can kiss every customer from another country goodbye. It's an extremely serious situation in my view.
- jodrellblank 12y ago
  This is a very real issue, and if the US states that any US company has to turn over data, you can kiss every customer from another country goodbye. It's not as if Microsoft is selling access to the highest bidder, or considering a request from another company or a charity. Turning over specific data in the face of a court order is not going to drive every customer away, many will see that as acceptable, low risk, reasonable behaviour.
  - nl 12y ago
    That's actually not the case. I've worked on many bid (on both sides of the table) where US based hosting was forbidden either by the bid process or by law (the new Australian privacy legislation makes it much simpler to keep data on-shore). At the moment many companies just resort to using the Australian Amazon data centre, and everyone is ok. If MS loses this case, I'd say 70% of those (enterprise) contracts using Amazon will use a non-US-owned provider simply because the risk is yet another things that has to be overcome.
  - AndyNemmity 12y ago
    Turning over specific data due to a court order will drive every enterprise customer away. Without question.

jkestner 12y ago

If data retention becomes a liability, will companies be forced to consider encrypting data or taking measures to ensure they don't ever see it, and thereby upend their business models? Or will governments require them to have a backdoor to the data?

AndyNemmity 12y ago
The initial impact is companies from other countries will refuse to work with any company outside of their perceived comfort zone. Take a company from Qatar. Perhaps they are comfortable with any datacenter in the middle east for Cloud Computing with a US company. If this becomes standard US law, they won't accept a US company for any reason. Thus every US company loses the customer, the profit, the business and it's replaced by others. It's that simple. And what about companies that are from another country, but have US entities? It's just a massive issue that could destroy corporate cloud computing.