8 ms·

What does society gain from a prison like that? Imagine a person spends 10 years in that situation, and gets out, what the hell are they supposed to do now? Th

by mabbo 12y ago

What does society gain from a prison like that? Imagine a person spends 10 years in that situation, and gets out, what the hell are they supposed to do now? They have no job skills, no life skills, they're psychologically damaged. The rate of re-offense isn't high because 'bad people are bad', it's high because we take people in bad situations, and break them further. We take someone almost-functional, and make them completely disfunctional. And anyone who disagrees with this model isn't "tough on crime".

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
themartorana 12y ago
Money, mostly. There is so much money in sending someone to prison it's absurd. Sure, it costs the taxpayers money, but we're always trying to transfer money from the lower and middle class up the chain. And that's when it's on the up-and-up. Half the time it's horribly corrupt[0]. Although, there's always oppression. Occupy saw all kinds of police abuses, which transferred to these judicial abuses. Sure, this one woman has a voice, but she also knows her freedoms are at the whims of others, no matter the evidence (not allowed in court) in her favor. [0] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
a3n 12y ago
> What does society gain from a prison like that? No, you have to ask, what does a prison like that gain from society? Once you understand that people are merely a resource for government, law enforcement and business, things make more sense. Think about that as you drive by a speed trap, that the police and city undoubtedly portray as a safety operation, but where the cops hide themselves because they're not trying to discourage speeding, they're trying to collect taxes. Think about that when you see various police organizations stating their opposition to legalizing marijuana. Is their objection that it may promote other, still illegal drugs, or that it would reduce LEO job opportunities? Their only proper stance on the issue, as LEO organizations, is to enforce the laws that society tells them to. Think about that as an apparently overzealous prosecutor bullies a plea bargain out of someone with the threat of life in prison. She's not overzealous, she doesn't care about society; the victim/defendant is merely a line on her resume. When a prosecutor's job performance depends on convictions (rather than truth), then she's going to maximize convictions. Think about that as you, just a normal citizen who is no threat to anyone, are monitored, threatened and controlled by unconstitutional surveillance and police tools that are supposedly intended for, you know, actual terrorists threats.
- archgoon 12y ago
  > Once you understand that people are merely a resource for government, law enforcement and business, things make more sense. Then why is it that other places in the world, such as Norway, prisons are not like American prisons? You're claiming that the state in America is simply an outcome of universal properties of Government, but this outcome is not universal. You can't just flippantly say "Things are bad 'cause Gubmint'", when it's clear that other places have overcome these challenges.
  - a3n 12y ago
    I didn't say it's universal, and Norway is apparently a place where reason wins more than America. They are also differently structured governments and societies, and the people have different formative experiences. We are not uniform, and no outcome is inevitable. The way things are in America are probably more likely in America than elsewhere because of our unique shared myths and the wieldability of government by evil people.
  - noir_lord 12y ago
    While I don't agree with the statement I think a lot of it has to with the sheer ruthless competition of interests in the American system each branch of whatever part of government seems to compete ruthlessly with the other branches. There seems to be very little thought about what is best for society and far more what is best for whatever branch that person works for.
- UweSchmidt 12y ago
  > What does society gain from a prison like that? No, you have to ask, what does a prison like that gain from society? All good. But let's not have whole conversations in this cynic mindset. Let's assume there is sufficient cumulative will to fix things, and let's identify ways to achieve that, however difficult it may seem.
- hluska 12y ago
  > Think about that as you drive by a speed trap, that the police and city undoubtedly portray as a safety operation, but where the cops hide themselves because they're not trying to discourage speeding, they're trying to collect taxes. This is an interesting point that I have never considered before. I've often thought that police officers hide themselves as a deterrent - if a hidden police officer can ticket you at any moment, it is a good reason to keep your speeding under control. Interesting analysis though and I will have to think more about my own views. Thanks for your comment!
leephillips 12y ago
"The rate of re-offense isn't high because 'bad people are bad'" How do you know this? Certainly there are different kinds of people who do crimes for different reasons. Some people are in fact "bad" and will keep doing bad things, and the only way to protect the rest of us from their crimes is to keep them locked up, kill them, or banish them to distant lands. For others, incarceration is counterproductive and might lead to a higher likelihood of them committing more crimes after they are released. And incarceration for anyone under the conditions prevailing in some US prisons and jails is insupportable. But some kind of humane incarceration for people who are compelled to continue offending, until one day we learn to fix these people, seems unavoidable.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- noir_lord 12y ago
  because many other developed countries have both lower crime rates and lower rates of re-offense. America incarcerates more of it's people per capita than any other country, more than North Korea, more than South Africa and more than Russia, indeed you incarcerate 7 times more than the European average per captita. reoffender rates are similarly awful.
yodsanklai 12y ago
Most people (a vast majority?) think people should pay for their crimes, and also don't want to see their tax money used for anything that could benefit to inmates. I'm actually surprised that it's not even worse than this.
- ivanca 12y ago
  "Pay for their crimes" is extremely vague, if you steal a cigarette should you go to jail? Most people would say "no, just give him a fine". But it has cost 300 billons on tax dollars to capture, convict, and jail the 2 million people that lives in American prisons, which is 25% of the world prisoners, mostly because there is harsh punishments for soft crimes (drugs, minor robbery, etc) http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/february/punishing-taxpayers-us-prison-system-run-amok/ http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/february/punishing-taxpay...
- dobbsbob 12y ago
  It is in some states, like Texas. They do forced labor outside (hoe squad), and none of the buildings are air conditioned so the inmates and guards go bezerk in the 40deg C heat. Texas tribune keeps a list of inmates and almost everybody is in their for some petty drug crime.
  - seandhi 12y ago
    Do you have a source for this? I have a good friend serving time in TDC, and his experience has been nothing like this. He's gone to school to get his associates degree for drafting, and he has a job - because he chose to have one - working in the commissary. RE: Air condition - you're right. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/faq/faq_cid.html#air http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/faq/faq_cid.html#air
    - dobbsbob 12y ago
      TDCJ inmates are not allowed income so he must not get paid at the commissary, sure he's not in federal prison in TX? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/teas-prisons-international-human-rights-standard-violations http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/teas-prisons-in... http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/justice/texas-prison-heat-lawsuit/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/justice/texas-prison-heat-laws... http://www.insideprison.com/prison_stories.asp?story_id=751 http://www.insideprison.com/prison_stories.asp?story_id=751 http://www.utexas.edu/know/2014/06/26/summer-heat-kills-inmates-in-prisons-and-that-needs-to-change/ http://www.utexas.edu/know/2014/06/26/summer-heat-kills-inma...
verroq 12y ago
Imagine you are HR (or hiring for your start up). Would you take a chance on your company on somebody that has been proven to fail (even if only once)? Would to take a chance on your company, your bottom line, your livelihood on this person? There's also a line of fully qualified people that hasn't failed before.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  Did you read the article? I'm trying to understand the mindset that would think of what she experienced as "failure". Can you help me? What did she fail at?
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  Failed at what? Would you hire someone who was divorced?
  - newaccountfool 12y ago
    "You can't even work out some social squabbles with your wife, she left you for your neighbor. Christ How the Fk is a jackass like you meant to code a suggestion algorithm if you can't keep that in check" You made a very good point.
- DanBC 12y ago
  You got downvotes but you accurately voice society's discrimination. People with criminal sentences find it harder to get jobs, especially if they've been in prison. I guess the downvotes are from people who recognise that discrimination and who would work to counter in when they employ people.
smutticus 12y ago
Good general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/
joshuaheard 12y ago
From law school I learned the the purposes of prison, the "three Rs": Removal from society; Retribution for the crime committed; Rehabilitation from their criminal behavior. How it works in practice is a different story, however.
zo1 12y ago
Perhaps people view prisons as a mode of punishment, rather than one of rehabilitation. It really is a vicious cycle, and as far as most of whichever society follows the "4 years of hell for an eye", it won't change.

by mabbo 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

themartorana 12y ago

Money, mostly. There is so much money in sending someone to prison it's absurd. Sure, it costs the taxpayers money, but we're always trying to transfer money from the lower and middle class up the chain. And that's when it's on the up-and-up. Half the time it's horribly corrupt[0]. Although, there's always oppression. Occupy saw all kinds of police abuses, which transferred to these judicial abuses. Sure, this one woman has a voice, but she also knows her freedoms are at the whims of others, no matter the evidence (not allowed in court) in her favor. [0] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

a3n 12y ago

> What does society gain from a prison like that? No, you have to ask, what does a prison like that gain from society? Once you understand that people are merely a resource for government, law enforcement and business, things make more sense. Think about that as you drive by a speed trap, that the police and city undoubtedly portray as a safety operation, but where the cops hide themselves because they're not trying to discourage speeding, they're trying to collect taxes. Think about that when you see various police organizations stating their opposition to legalizing marijuana. Is their objection that it may promote other, still illegal drugs, or that it would reduce LEO job opportunities? Their only proper stance on the issue, as LEO organizations, is to enforce the laws that society tells them to. Think about that as an apparently overzealous prosecutor bullies a plea bargain out of someone with the threat of life in prison. She's not overzealous, she doesn't care about society; the victim/defendant is merely a line on her resume. When a prosecutor's job performance depends on convictions (rather than truth), then she's going to maximize convictions. Think about that as you, just a normal citizen who is no threat to anyone, are monitored, threatened and controlled by unconstitutional surveillance and police tools that are supposedly intended for, you know, actual terrorists threats.

archgoon 12y ago
> Once you understand that people are merely a resource for government, law enforcement and business, things make more sense. Then why is it that other places in the world, such as Norway, prisons are not like American prisons? You're claiming that the state in America is simply an outcome of universal properties of Government, but this outcome is not universal. You can't just flippantly say "Things are bad 'cause Gubmint'", when it's clear that other places have overcome these challenges.
- a3n 12y ago
  I didn't say it's universal, and Norway is apparently a place where reason wins more than America. They are also differently structured governments and societies, and the people have different formative experiences. We are not uniform, and no outcome is inevitable. The way things are in America are probably more likely in America than elsewhere because of our unique shared myths and the wieldability of government by evil people.
- noir_lord 12y ago
  While I don't agree with the statement I think a lot of it has to with the sheer ruthless competition of interests in the American system each branch of whatever part of government seems to compete ruthlessly with the other branches. There seems to be very little thought about what is best for society and far more what is best for whatever branch that person works for.
UweSchmidt 12y ago
> What does society gain from a prison like that? No, you have to ask, what does a prison like that gain from society? All good. But let's not have whole conversations in this cynic mindset. Let's assume there is sufficient cumulative will to fix things, and let's identify ways to achieve that, however difficult it may seem.
hluska 12y ago
> Think about that as you drive by a speed trap, that the police and city undoubtedly portray as a safety operation, but where the cops hide themselves because they're not trying to discourage speeding, they're trying to collect taxes. This is an interesting point that I have never considered before. I've often thought that police officers hide themselves as a deterrent - if a hidden police officer can ticket you at any moment, it is a good reason to keep your speeding under control. Interesting analysis though and I will have to think more about my own views. Thanks for your comment!

leephillips 12y ago

"The rate of re-offense isn't high because 'bad people are bad'" How do you know this? Certainly there are different kinds of people who do crimes for different reasons. Some people are in fact "bad" and will keep doing bad things, and the only way to protect the rest of us from their crimes is to keep them locked up, kill them, or banish them to distant lands. For others, incarceration is counterproductive and might lead to a higher likelihood of them committing more crimes after they are released. And incarceration for anyone under the conditions prevailing in some US prisons and jails is insupportable. But some kind of humane incarceration for people who are compelled to continue offending, until one day we learn to fix these people, seems unavoidable.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
noir_lord 12y ago
because many other developed countries have both lower crime rates and lower rates of re-offense. America incarcerates more of it's people per capita than any other country, more than North Korea, more than South Africa and more than Russia, indeed you incarcerate 7 times more than the European average per captita. reoffender rates are similarly awful.

yodsanklai 12y ago

Most people (a vast majority?) think people should pay for their crimes, and also don't want to see their tax money used for anything that could benefit to inmates. I'm actually surprised that it's not even worse than this.

ivanca 12y ago
"Pay for their crimes" is extremely vague, if you steal a cigarette should you go to jail? Most people would say "no, just give him a fine". But it has cost 300 billons on tax dollars to capture, convict, and jail the 2 million people that lives in American prisons, which is 25% of the world prisoners, mostly because there is harsh punishments for soft crimes (drugs, minor robbery, etc) http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/february/punishing-taxpayers-us-prison-system-run-amok/ http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/february/punishing-taxpay...
dobbsbob 12y ago
It is in some states, like Texas. They do forced labor outside (hoe squad), and none of the buildings are air conditioned so the inmates and guards go bezerk in the 40deg C heat. Texas tribune keeps a list of inmates and almost everybody is in their for some petty drug crime.
- seandhi 12y ago
  Do you have a source for this? I have a good friend serving time in TDC, and his experience has been nothing like this. He's gone to school to get his associates degree for drafting, and he has a job - because he chose to have one - working in the commissary. RE: Air condition - you're right. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/faq/faq_cid.html#air http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/faq/faq_cid.html#air
  - dobbsbob 12y ago
    TDCJ inmates are not allowed income so he must not get paid at the commissary, sure he's not in federal prison in TX? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/teas-prisons-international-human-rights-standard-violations http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/teas-prisons-in... http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/justice/texas-prison-heat-lawsuit/ http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/justice/texas-prison-heat-laws... http://www.insideprison.com/prison_stories.asp?story_id=751 http://www.insideprison.com/prison_stories.asp?story_id=751 http://www.utexas.edu/know/2014/06/26/summer-heat-kills-inmates-in-prisons-and-that-needs-to-change/ http://www.utexas.edu/know/2014/06/26/summer-heat-kills-inma...

verroq 12y ago

Imagine you are HR (or hiring for your start up). Would you take a chance on your company on somebody that has been proven to fail (even if only once)? Would to take a chance on your company, your bottom line, your livelihood on this person? There's also a line of fully qualified people that hasn't failed before.

jnbiche 12y ago
Did you read the article? I'm trying to understand the mindset that would think of what she experienced as "failure". Can you help me? What did she fail at?
guard-of-terra 12y ago
Failed at what? Would you hire someone who was divorced?
- newaccountfool 12y ago
  "You can't even work out some social squabbles with your wife, she left you for your neighbor. Christ How the Fk is a jackass like you meant to code a suggestion algorithm if you can't keep that in check" You made a very good point.
DanBC 12y ago
You got downvotes but you accurately voice society's discrimination. People with criminal sentences find it harder to get jobs, especially if they've been in prison. I guess the downvotes are from people who recognise that discrimination and who would work to counter in when they employ people.

smutticus 12y ago

Good general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/

joshuaheard 12y ago

From law school I learned the the purposes of prison, the "three Rs": Removal from society; Retribution for the crime committed; Rehabilitation from their criminal behavior. How it works in practice is a different story, however.

zo1 12y ago

Perhaps people view prisons as a mode of punishment, rather than one of rehabilitation. It really is a vicious cycle, and as far as most of whichever society follows the "4 years of hell for an eye", it won't change.