5 ms·

I'm a big fan of recreational weed (ideally sativa strains), but my experience with indica strains for pain relieve is not good. I find that rather than making

by Crito 12y ago

I'm a big fan of recreational weed (ideally sativa strains), but my experience with indica strains for pain relieve is not good. I find that rather than making me forget about chronic pain that I currently experience (neck cramps, sore muscles, etc) it makes me remember/re-experience pain from years-old injuries. Surgical scars I got when I was in my teens and haven't felt since suddenly have dull unignorable sensations of pain. A toe I broke a year ago starts hurting again. Etc. Nobody that I have mentioned this too has ever said they experienced the same so I've usually just written it off as some sort of strange psychosomatic thing, but the article's passing mention that "marijuana doesn’t replace the pain relief of opiates. However, it does seem to distract from the pain by making it less bothersome." makes me wonder if something is actually going on here.

scythe 12y ago
Sativa is probably the better strain for pain relief, as it contains primarily THC (which is analgesic), whereas indicas contain roughly equal amounts of THC and CBD (which is anxiolytic and sedative). A lot has been said in this debate and a sort of misguided idea that has been floating around lately is that the therapeutic effects of cannabis are entirely due to CBD, but this is not the case. Current thinking is that the cannabinoid receptor type 1 -- CB1 -- is responsible for analgesic (anti-pain) and recreational properties, while CB2 is responsible for antiinflammatory effects; these are both targeted by THC, not CBD. CBD binds to a novel binding site GPR55 (iirc) and to 5-ht1a, which is believed to be partially responsible for the prosocial effects of MDMA, but not to cannabinoid receptors. Wrt. cancer, a bad summary is that THC activates some parts of the body's natural cancer defenses via CB2 (all CB2 agonists do so) and CBD might have some strange, mechanism-not-yet-determine antiproliferative activity. However, these effects may be too modest to be practically useful (who knows?); cancers easily become resistant to CB2 agonists. While I'm blabbering I might as well dispense with the idea propounded by some that cannabis should only be used medically in the form of precisely calibrated extract compositions: this idea, while attractive, is simply too expensive, and unfair to poor people seeking pain relief, somnolescence, etc. However, from what I've seen here today, it might not be bad to try to implement a system where doctors can prescribe a specific terpenoid ratio w.r.t. THC, CBD, and THCV; the last is an antagonist and may give strains a "ceiling" effect, which can be useful if people need to smoke all day for some reason.
- ewoodrich 12y ago
  Indicas don't contain roughly equal amounts of THC and CBD -- the difference between the two is at least an order of magnitude. An exemplar indica might have 20% THC and 1.5% CBD, which would be considered an extremely high level of CBD. Your main point is still valid though, I just wanted to make the relative quantities clear. Some nonspecific examples of tested strain concentration: https://budgenius.com/strains.html?tab=0&high_rating=0&sleep_aid=0&pain_relief=0&nausea_relief=0&anxiety_relief=0&appetite_stimulation=0&location=&coordinates=&radius=10 https://budgenius.com/strains.html?tab=0&high_rating=0&sleep...
  - scythe 12y ago
    > An exemplar indica might have 20% THC and 1.5% CBD, which would be considered an extremely high level of CBD. https://budgenius.com/ATF-B-Shangri-La-Farms-BG0010001EB64.html https://budgenius.com/ATF-B-Shangri-La-Farms-BG0010001EB64.h... https://budgenius.com/Titan-OG-7-Points-Medical-BG0010001EE99.html https://budgenius.com/Titan-OG-7-Points-Medical-BG0010001EE9... Many strains according to this site of yours certainly seem to contain significantly more than 1.5% CBD. Ditto this study: http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/6/966.full http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/6/966.full ... which doesn't include any modern US strains but provides strong support for the idea that there are plants with large amounts of both CBD and THC. I actually may have made a separate mistake... >Elevated levels of CBDV and/or THCV were much more common in plants of C. indica than in plants of C. sativa. Plants with elevated levels of THCV, sometimes exceeding THC, were detected in all four biotypes of C. indica, but not in all accessions. So my memory has failed me, or the common-wisdom I absorbed: Cannabis indica contains more of both THC and CBD than Cannabis sativa, but also contains larger amounts (and proportion) of the antagonist homologue THCV. And modern strains are all really hybrids anyway.
    - ewoodrich 12y ago
      Hmm, to be honest, I've never encountered any strain above 1.5% or so CBD, so that takes me by surprise, a bit. I also have access to a fairly diverse selection of MMJ options in a permissive state, so I'm surprised I haven't seen any strains like that. Learn something new every day, I suppose. I appreciate the info - I'll keep on the look out.
yid 12y ago
As sycthye alludes to, you should be looking at high-CBD strains for pain relief, not typically THC-heavy sativa strains.
codeshaman 12y ago
This just shows that there is a link between marijuana and the feelings of pain (anecdotal evidence with sample size 1, but still). And the way you are describing it, it seems that it gives you 'ideas of pain' rather than pain itself, a subtle but important distinction. If this is the case, it is more aking to the way hypnosis reduces pain, rather than painkillers. Which makes sense, since marijuana does make a person a lot more suggestible, which can be used to the user's benefit if properly controlled. In your particular case, might it be that you're hypnotising yourself into remembering and feeling old pain ?
yodsanklai 12y ago
I agree. To me weed has little influence on pain. OTC painkillers work better without a doubt - at least for the common sources of pain. Besides, the side effects (being high...) are such that even if it was efficient it still would be unusable most of the time.
- Retric 12y ago
  OTC painkillers are almost useless for significant pain levels. Think levels of pain where coherent speach is basicly impossible without medication. Unfortunatly that's only about an 8 on the 1-10 pain scale. For real pain there are several drugs that rather than just blocking the sensation tone down the importance of pain. Pot, falls into this group and relative to the benifit has few side effects.
  - yodsanklai 12y ago
    Considering that pot doesn't help (me) with common pains such as headache, back pain, tooth pain, I'm led to believe it doesn't help either with extremely severe pain. Where there any scientific studies that tackle those questions? I'm all in favour of legalisation, but the medical trend sounds like a big hypocrisy to me. I'm certain some patients benefit somehow from the effects of THC or CDB, but pretty much all cannabis users are recreational.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - silencio 12y ago
      I used to vape for pain from nerve compression after I went through a couple of unsatisfying treatment options - and no otc painkillers even touch it so that's that. There's some studies and anecdata showing that pot is potentially helpful for neuropathic pain, which is a different and very hairy beast. From my experience, it only tones down the sensation of pain at best, maybe just a placebo. More often I would just get high as a kite to stop caring about pain and/or to be able to sleep easily. Not that that's a bad thing but... in the end I tried another prescription option and get most of the same toning down/drowsiness effect without bad side effects for far cheaper, so that was the end of that. No doubt many users just want to use it recreationally, but enough people are motivated to study medicinal uses, so that's good. I think there is some potential here for that. Here's some links: http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2014/08/26/marijuana-vaporization-reduces-pain-new-israeli-study-finds/ http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2014/08/26/marijuana-va... http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20080625/pot-may-ease-nerve-pain-study-shows http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20080625/pot-may-e... http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20100830/marijuana-relieves-chronic-pain-research-show http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20100830/marijuana...
Broken_Hippo 12y ago
I've read studies about weed and pain relief. Brain scans still show the 'pain areas' of the brain are active in MS pateints, but patients themselves are generally less bothered by the pain, and it seems similar with opiates. Sometimes the opiates or other painkillers aren't enough to get rid of the pain, but if you aren't nearly as bothered by the pain that the painkiller didn't take care of, suddenly the pain is much more tolerable and you are more able to go on with life. For myself, I notice that sometimes this is the difference between being able to sleep with monthly pain and lying awake. Your reaction is unique: Some people do have bad reactions, and it could be that a different form (hashish, for example) will do the trick for you. To me, It doesn't matter if the results are actual pain relief either. If it helps make it so the pain is tolerable so that one can function more normally, it really doesn't matter. Perceived improvement is good for the mind.
- gizmo686 12y ago
  It seems like it is desirable for pain killers to leave the pain areas of our brain active, but make the pain less bothersome. If they worked by literally stopping the pain, then we would not notice if we were doing something that was injuring us.

by Crito 12y ago

scythe 12y ago

Sativa is probably the better strain for pain relief, as it contains primarily THC (which is analgesic), whereas indicas contain roughly equal amounts of THC and CBD (which is anxiolytic and sedative). A lot has been said in this debate and a sort of misguided idea that has been floating around lately is that the therapeutic effects of cannabis are entirely due to CBD, but this is not the case. Current thinking is that the cannabinoid receptor type 1 -- CB1 -- is responsible for analgesic (anti-pain) and recreational properties, while CB2 is responsible for antiinflammatory effects; these are both targeted by THC, not CBD. CBD binds to a novel binding site GPR55 (iirc) and to 5-ht1a, which is believed to be partially responsible for the prosocial effects of MDMA, but not to cannabinoid receptors. Wrt. cancer, a bad summary is that THC activates some parts of the body's natural cancer defenses via CB2 (all CB2 agonists do so) and CBD might have some strange, mechanism-not-yet-determine antiproliferative activity. However, these effects may be too modest to be practically useful (who knows?); cancers easily become resistant to CB2 agonists. While I'm blabbering I might as well dispense with the idea propounded by some that cannabis should only be used medically in the form of precisely calibrated extract compositions: this idea, while attractive, is simply too expensive, and unfair to poor people seeking pain relief, somnolescence, etc. However, from what I've seen here today, it might not be bad to try to implement a system where doctors can prescribe a specific terpenoid ratio w.r.t. THC, CBD, and THCV; the last is an antagonist and may give strains a "ceiling" effect, which can be useful if people need to smoke all day for some reason.

ewoodrich 12y ago
Indicas don't contain roughly equal amounts of THC and CBD -- the difference between the two is at least an order of magnitude. An exemplar indica might have 20% THC and 1.5% CBD, which would be considered an extremely high level of CBD. Your main point is still valid though, I just wanted to make the relative quantities clear. Some nonspecific examples of tested strain concentration: https://budgenius.com/strains.html?tab=0&high_rating=0&sleep_aid=0&pain_relief=0&nausea_relief=0&anxiety_relief=0&appetite_stimulation=0&location=&coordinates=&radius=10 https://budgenius.com/strains.html?tab=0&high_rating=0&sleep...
- scythe 12y ago
  > An exemplar indica might have 20% THC and 1.5% CBD, which would be considered an extremely high level of CBD. https://budgenius.com/ATF-B-Shangri-La-Farms-BG0010001EB64.html https://budgenius.com/ATF-B-Shangri-La-Farms-BG0010001EB64.h... https://budgenius.com/Titan-OG-7-Points-Medical-BG0010001EE99.html https://budgenius.com/Titan-OG-7-Points-Medical-BG0010001EE9... Many strains according to this site of yours certainly seem to contain significantly more than 1.5% CBD. Ditto this study: http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/6/966.full http://www.amjbot.org/content/91/6/966.full ... which doesn't include any modern US strains but provides strong support for the idea that there are plants with large amounts of both CBD and THC. I actually may have made a separate mistake... >Elevated levels of CBDV and/or THCV were much more common in plants of C. indica than in plants of C. sativa. Plants with elevated levels of THCV, sometimes exceeding THC, were detected in all four biotypes of C. indica, but not in all accessions. So my memory has failed me, or the common-wisdom I absorbed: Cannabis indica contains more of both THC and CBD than Cannabis sativa, but also contains larger amounts (and proportion) of the antagonist homologue THCV. And modern strains are all really hybrids anyway.
  - ewoodrich 12y ago
    Hmm, to be honest, I've never encountered any strain above 1.5% or so CBD, so that takes me by surprise, a bit. I also have access to a fairly diverse selection of MMJ options in a permissive state, so I'm surprised I haven't seen any strains like that. Learn something new every day, I suppose. I appreciate the info - I'll keep on the look out.

yid 12y ago

As sycthye alludes to, you should be looking at high-CBD strains for pain relief, not typically THC-heavy sativa strains.

codeshaman 12y ago

This just shows that there is a link between marijuana and the feelings of pain (anecdotal evidence with sample size 1, but still). And the way you are describing it, it seems that it gives you 'ideas of pain' rather than pain itself, a subtle but important distinction. If this is the case, it is more aking to the way hypnosis reduces pain, rather than painkillers. Which makes sense, since marijuana does make a person a lot more suggestible, which can be used to the user's benefit if properly controlled. In your particular case, might it be that you're hypnotising yourself into remembering and feeling old pain ?

yodsanklai 12y ago

I agree. To me weed has little influence on pain. OTC painkillers work better without a doubt - at least for the common sources of pain. Besides, the side effects (being high...) are such that even if it was efficient it still would be unusable most of the time.

Retric 12y ago
OTC painkillers are almost useless for significant pain levels. Think levels of pain where coherent speach is basicly impossible without medication. Unfortunatly that's only about an 8 on the 1-10 pain scale. For real pain there are several drugs that rather than just blocking the sensation tone down the importance of pain. Pot, falls into this group and relative to the benifit has few side effects.
- yodsanklai 12y ago
  Considering that pot doesn't help (me) with common pains such as headache, back pain, tooth pain, I'm led to believe it doesn't help either with extremely severe pain. Where there any scientific studies that tackle those questions? I'm all in favour of legalisation, but the medical trend sounds like a big hypocrisy to me. I'm certain some patients benefit somehow from the effects of THC or CDB, but pretty much all cannabis users are recreational.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - silencio 12y ago
    I used to vape for pain from nerve compression after I went through a couple of unsatisfying treatment options - and no otc painkillers even touch it so that's that. There's some studies and anecdata showing that pot is potentially helpful for neuropathic pain, which is a different and very hairy beast. From my experience, it only tones down the sensation of pain at best, maybe just a placebo. More often I would just get high as a kite to stop caring about pain and/or to be able to sleep easily. Not that that's a bad thing but... in the end I tried another prescription option and get most of the same toning down/drowsiness effect without bad side effects for far cheaper, so that was the end of that. No doubt many users just want to use it recreationally, but enough people are motivated to study medicinal uses, so that's good. I think there is some potential here for that. Here's some links: http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2014/08/26/marijuana-vaporization-reduces-pain-new-israeli-study-finds/ http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2014/08/26/marijuana-va... http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20080625/pot-may-ease-nerve-pain-study-shows http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20080625/pot-may-e... http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20100830/marijuana-relieves-chronic-pain-research-show http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20100830/marijuana...

Broken_Hippo 12y ago

I've read studies about weed and pain relief. Brain scans still show the 'pain areas' of the brain are active in MS pateints, but patients themselves are generally less bothered by the pain, and it seems similar with opiates. Sometimes the opiates or other painkillers aren't enough to get rid of the pain, but if you aren't nearly as bothered by the pain that the painkiller didn't take care of, suddenly the pain is much more tolerable and you are more able to go on with life. For myself, I notice that sometimes this is the difference between being able to sleep with monthly pain and lying awake. Your reaction is unique: Some people do have bad reactions, and it could be that a different form (hashish, for example) will do the trick for you. To me, It doesn't matter if the results are actual pain relief either. If it helps make it so the pain is tolerable so that one can function more normally, it really doesn't matter. Perceived improvement is good for the mind.

gizmo686 12y ago
It seems like it is desirable for pain killers to leave the pain areas of our brain active, but make the pain less bothersome. If they worked by literally stopping the pain, then we would not notice if we were doing something that was injuring us.