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"There is a growing market for privacy (confidentiality), in my amateur opinion; at least it seems that many consumers choose privacy when given the option and

"There is a growing market for privacy (confidentiality), in my amateur opinion; at least it seems that many consumers choose privacy when given the option and they dislike surveillance." I think this is mostly a myth when it comes to consumer software. People say they like privacy/confidentiality/security but they are not willing to make any compromises to get it even if those compromises are very small in comparison to the privacy/security wins.

hackuser 12y ago
Asa: Thanks for the input though of course I hope you are wrong. :) Is there research on that? Your experience at Mozilla? I do know a a few data points: (EDIT: walterbell provides a very good data point below, and one that should have been obvious to me!) * Some vendors of confidentiality services report increased demand, especially since the Snowden revelations. (Sorry, I don't remember who reported it.) * Facebook and others now are emphasizing privacy, suggesting that they see demand for it. * A recent consumer survey said confidentiality concerns were impacting purchases on mobile devices. * Also I read in an advertising industry publication that when a retail store chain posted signs saying they were tracking customer activities (via wifi/bluetooth on mobile devices), they got many complaints and saw an impact. * Their solution of course was to take down the signs, which raises another point: If consumers/citizens don't care about surveillance, then why are businesses and government secretive about it?
- thisisrobv 12y ago
  Privacy is a factor, it's just not the factor that drives most decisions around consumer software (at least mass market adoption). It's true that Facebook and others have emphasized privacy, but they have not compromised the user experience. Projects like this are challenging because you're forcing some behavioral changes for additional security.
walterbell 12y ago
> People say they like privacy/confidentiality/security but they are not willing to make any compromises to get it even if those compromises are very small in comparison to the privacy/security wins. That's a design & engineering problem which can solved for specific use cases. Snapchat's user base & 10 billion dollar valuation is one example.
- opendais 12y ago
  Snapchat is neither private or secure. It creates the illusion of it but its illusion is extraordinarily thin. Please don't perpetuate the myth they are private or secure. http://www.informationweek.com/software/social/5-ways-snapchat-violated-your-privacy-security/d/d-id/1251175 http://www.informationweek.com/software/social/5-ways-snapch... http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/oh-snap-snapchat-fixes-flaw-let-attackers-shut-down-phones-n26706 http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/oh-snap-snapchat-fixes-... http://gibsonsec.org/snapchat/fulldisclosure/ http://gibsonsec.org/snapchat/fulldisclosure/ http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/28/technology/security/snapchat-security-flaw/ http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/28/technology/security/snapchat... etc.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    I'm well aware they are technically neither private nor secure. But for users who don't want their parents / school / employers to have an easily accessible record of their communication, Snapchat is an improvement on Facebook (see http://www.danah.org/itscomplicated/ http://www.danah.org/itscomplicated/), if one defines a security failure as "parent asks question about facebook post". User perception of relative privacy has lead Snapchat to the point of having a large user base and significant funding, i.e. it demonstrates user demand for privacy. The quality of Snapchat's product is another matter, but they now have the resources to be private and secure, if they so choose. TextSecure is doing good work in private messaging, hopefully their iOS version will raise the bar for everyone.
    - opendais 12y ago
      If you define security failure as "keeping things from your parents", ya I suppose that might qualify. However, when all it takes is someone deciding they want to copy the picture and spread it...I think it results in a dangerous situation where the "customer" thinks its secure/safe but the reality is it isn't. I've seen so much damage caused by that sort of event that I take the idea that people consider such things "secure" or "private" offensive.
      - 12y ago
hackuser 12y ago
> I think this is mostly a myth when it comes to consumer software. People say they like privacy/confidentiality/security but they are not willing to make any compromises to get it even if those compromises are very small in comparison to the privacy/security wins. I know almost nothing about marketing consumer software, but if Mozilla/Firefox established itself now as the leaders in privacy, they may have an insurmountable lead in consumers' minds when/if the market moves that way. (I realize the same could be said about any product/feature for which there currently is little demand: 'If Mozilla/Firefox started providing free cheezy-poofs with their browser now, they'd have an insurmountable lead when the market moved that way.')

hackuser 12y ago

Asa: Thanks for the input though of course I hope you are wrong. :) Is there research on that? Your experience at Mozilla? I do know a a few data points: (EDIT: walterbell provides a very good data point below, and one that should have been obvious to me!) * Some vendors of confidentiality services report increased demand, especially since the Snowden revelations. (Sorry, I don't remember who reported it.) * Facebook and others now are emphasizing privacy, suggesting that they see demand for it. * A recent consumer survey said confidentiality concerns were impacting purchases on mobile devices. * Also I read in an advertising industry publication that when a retail store chain posted signs saying they were tracking customer activities (via wifi/bluetooth on mobile devices), they got many complaints and saw an impact. * Their solution of course was to take down the signs, which raises another point: If consumers/citizens don't care about surveillance, then why are businesses and government secretive about it?

thisisrobv 12y ago
Privacy is a factor, it's just not the factor that drives most decisions around consumer software (at least mass market adoption). It's true that Facebook and others have emphasized privacy, but they have not compromised the user experience. Projects like this are challenging because you're forcing some behavioral changes for additional security.

walterbell 12y ago

> People say they like privacy/confidentiality/security but they are not willing to make any compromises to get it even if those compromises are very small in comparison to the privacy/security wins. That's a design & engineering problem which can solved for specific use cases. Snapchat's user base & 10 billion dollar valuation is one example.

opendais 12y ago
Snapchat is neither private or secure. It creates the illusion of it but its illusion is extraordinarily thin. Please don't perpetuate the myth they are private or secure. http://www.informationweek.com/software/social/5-ways-snapchat-violated-your-privacy-security/d/d-id/1251175 http://www.informationweek.com/software/social/5-ways-snapch... http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/oh-snap-snapchat-fixes-flaw-let-attackers-shut-down-phones-n26706 http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/oh-snap-snapchat-fixes-... http://gibsonsec.org/snapchat/fulldisclosure/ http://gibsonsec.org/snapchat/fulldisclosure/ http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/28/technology/security/snapchat-security-flaw/ http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/28/technology/security/snapchat... etc.
- walterbell 12y ago
  I'm well aware they are technically neither private nor secure. But for users who don't want their parents / school / employers to have an easily accessible record of their communication, Snapchat is an improvement on Facebook (see http://www.danah.org/itscomplicated/ http://www.danah.org/itscomplicated/), if one defines a security failure as "parent asks question about facebook post". User perception of relative privacy has lead Snapchat to the point of having a large user base and significant funding, i.e. it demonstrates user demand for privacy. The quality of Snapchat's product is another matter, but they now have the resources to be private and secure, if they so choose. TextSecure is doing good work in private messaging, hopefully their iOS version will raise the bar for everyone.
  - opendais 12y ago
    If you define security failure as "keeping things from your parents", ya I suppose that might qualify. However, when all it takes is someone deciding they want to copy the picture and spread it...I think it results in a dangerous situation where the "customer" thinks its secure/safe but the reality is it isn't. I've seen so much damage caused by that sort of event that I take the idea that people consider such things "secure" or "private" offensive.
    - 12y ago

hackuser 12y ago

> I think this is mostly a myth when it comes to consumer software. People say they like privacy/confidentiality/security but they are not willing to make any compromises to get it even if those compromises are very small in comparison to the privacy/security wins. I know almost nothing about marketing consumer software, but if Mozilla/Firefox established itself now as the leaders in privacy, they may have an insurmountable lead in consumers' minds when/if the market moves that way. (I realize the same could be said about any product/feature for which there currently is little demand: 'If Mozilla/Firefox started providing free cheezy-poofs with their browser now, they'd have an insurmountable lead when the market moved that way.')