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This is certainly what Dan Gilbert would like you to think so he can resell his cheaply purchased real estate at a profit. Detroit has poor infrastructure (res

This is certainly what Dan Gilbert would like you to think so he can resell his cheaply purchased real estate at a profit. Detroit has poor infrastructure (responsible for recent flooding,) high taxes, no public rail transport, poor roads, rush-hour traffic congestion, poor parking, some of the worst schools in the country, corrupt local government, is full of blighted neighborhoods, and I am sure many other terrible things. I am trying to see the reason why anyone would think it was a good idea to live or work there in its current condition.

enraged_camel 12y ago
Yeah. Anyone who talks about how great Detroit is and how it is making a "comeback" is most likely living in either the small portion of the downtown core that has enjoyed some investments recently, or in one of the wealthy gated neighborhoods. They haven't traveled outside those places to see the real Detroit, which consists of rundown and abandoned neighborhoods as far as the eye can see and an incredible amount of poverty that permeates them.
- personZ 12y ago
  Isn't it possible that such a comeback is reflected in small areas at first? That the city isn't going to wake up one morning restored to its former glory? Comments such as yours (and the parent above it) seem to believe that Detroit is down and must stay down. That any negative in the town anywhere invalidates any positive elsewhere. But that is, of course, nonsense. Indeed, we heard exactly the same sort of noise about New York City in the 80s which, while clearly never hitting anywhere near the bottoms of Detroit, many wrote off as beyond repair, settled into a cesspool of crime and decay. The "real" Detroit includes an invigorating downtown, growing investments, and an actual tech community. That, too, counts as Detroit, and it doesn't not count simply because you can point to negatives elsewhere.
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>Comments such as yours (and the parent above it) seem to believe that Detroit is down and must stay down. It's not that it must stay down, but rather that it most likely will. The only reason it was a successful city at one point is manufacturing. Manufacturing has since left, and it's very unlikely that an equally lucrative industry is going to be able to fill the gap. In general, it's much easier for small towns to become successful cities (as Detroit once did), than for decaying cities to make a comeback (as some people think Detroit will do soon).
    - personZ 12y ago
      Manufacturing has since left, and it's very unlikely that an equally lucrative industry is going to be able to fill the gap. By this measure, just about every American city is doomed. Except, I suppose, San Francisco, if we accept that every city is "winner takes all" (which it isn't and has never been). Detroit is a metro area about 4 million strong. It is the gateway for millions of Canadians, and to the Toronto area. It is midway between a number of great cities. It has abundant energy, geological and political stability, limited pests, and so on. It has a very large workforce, and despite the reputation, a very large educated workforce. I mean some of the commentary in here is just...weird. Someone else commented as if all industry is going to move South, as if winter is a significant economic factor (it isn't) to industry (aside from data centers and cooling, for that matter).
- seanflyon 12y ago
  > real Detroit If you insist that Detroit is defined by its failing communities and not by its successful ones then Detroit will always, by definition, be failing. To argue that Detroit is not making a "comeback" you must claim that either the successful areas are not growing or that they will not continue to grow.
autokad 12y ago
i think its the myspace of cities. i dont mean that as a snarky comment. I think once a city has an outflow of a certain magnitude, even if there are good things about the city it has already lost its ability to sustain structure.
hentrep 12y ago
Is this not the case for all "emerging markets"? This wouldn't be a story if Detroit had low crime, great infrastructure, low taxes, superb public transport, immaculate roads, and prestigious schools. All of the aforementioned would translate to increased costs of living. Is Dan Gilbert making money from this? Absolutely, but he's also the one that took on the initial risk. The cost for cheap, spacious housing and office space in Detroit is having to tolerate a phoenix city in the midst of an identity crisis; expecting something which resembles NYC or SF is silly. I grew up in Michigan and have been to Detroit numerous times, and what I've witnessed lately (in concentrated locations, of course) is exciting -- see http://techtowndetroit.org/ http://techtowndetroit.org/. Granted, there are certainly depressing and desolate areas of the city, but again that should be expected for a city that has seen massive emigration and decreased revenue. I am optimistic about the future of Detroit.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  There are a lot of differences between Detroit and a real emerging market. For one, higher minimum wages. For another, additional environmental and labor regulations (and while some of this may benefit society and some of it may not, much of it probably results in increased compliance costs.) For a third, a 41% corporate income tax rate (35% US + 6% Michigan, according to casual internet search). If you're going to pay the very high price of doing business in the US, it might be a better plan to locate yourself somewhere a little less wrecked where it actually buys you something.
  - hentrep 12y ago
    "If you're going to pay the very high price of doing business in the US, it might be a better plan to locate yourself somewhere a little less wrecked where it actually buys you something." Your comparisons to traditional emerging markets are well taken, but your last sentence highlights my point perfectly. Detroit is much more than abandoned buildings and abject poverty. Of course those are the easiest things to focus on because they cater to strong emotions. Meanwhile, all of the positive aspects about Detroit are subsequently white-washed. Detroit is a massive city encompassing 143 square miles, and much of it is in dire condition, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Keep in mind that there are pockets of Detroit in which amazing people are building incredible and exciting things, typically in a highly bootstrapped fashion. Blanket statements like, "less wrecked" imply that Detroit in its entirety is wrecked. This is certainly not the case as illustrated by companies like Shinola and VC firms like Ludlow Ventures. For additional examples, see: http://www.growdetroit.com/detroit-startup-list/ http://www.growdetroit.com/detroit-startup-list/. Of course I am biased as a native Michigander, but for life in general I much prefer to focus on silver linings than frayed seams.
rmason 12y ago
Dan Gilbert wasn't the first person to notice he could buy Detroit skyscrapers for the price of one years rent in NYC. He's been criticized, even in Detroit, for buying them yet no one else was willing to take the risk. Like most things only in hindsight does it look like he got a screaming deal. Most of the knowledgeable real estate people are still unwilling to buy them and you're worried about Gilbert getting a profit? Note the Chinese are not only buying them but recently outbidding Gilbert. A city comes back in spurts and not all at once. After fifty years of trending down at an accelerating rate I've been arguing for several years no one in the press was seeing the story of the city's revival. Yet there are critics snarking that the entire city isn't back yet. It didn't decline equally and it won't return that way. All those high paying jobs that are moving downtown are also creating jobs in security, health care and restaurants. If you look carefully you can begin to see it happening elsewhere. Tear down those 70,000 blighted properties (which is beginning to happen) and you won't be able to deny in a few years that its happening all over. Detroit is Michigan's Northern Star and until it returns to prominence neither will Michigan.
grecy 12y ago
> Detroit has...poor roads, rush-hour traffic congestion, poor parking, worst schools, corrupt local government, full of blighted neighborhoods, many other terrible things. Compared to what? (I ask, because viewed from the perspective of developed countries, that's how much of the United States looks)
- ocb 12y ago
  Compared to the rest of the United States, obviously. And why the condescending tone?
  - grecy 12y ago
    I asked that question because given the last sentence: > I am trying to see the reason why anyone would think it was a good idea to live or work there in its current condition. It's interesting to think that's what a lot of the US looks like to foreigners.

enraged_camel 12y ago

Yeah. Anyone who talks about how great Detroit is and how it is making a "comeback" is most likely living in either the small portion of the downtown core that has enjoyed some investments recently, or in one of the wealthy gated neighborhoods. They haven't traveled outside those places to see the real Detroit, which consists of rundown and abandoned neighborhoods as far as the eye can see and an incredible amount of poverty that permeates them.

personZ 12y ago
Isn't it possible that such a comeback is reflected in small areas at first? That the city isn't going to wake up one morning restored to its former glory? Comments such as yours (and the parent above it) seem to believe that Detroit is down and must stay down. That any negative in the town anywhere invalidates any positive elsewhere. But that is, of course, nonsense. Indeed, we heard exactly the same sort of noise about New York City in the 80s which, while clearly never hitting anywhere near the bottoms of Detroit, many wrote off as beyond repair, settled into a cesspool of crime and decay. The "real" Detroit includes an invigorating downtown, growing investments, and an actual tech community. That, too, counts as Detroit, and it doesn't not count simply because you can point to negatives elsewhere.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>Comments such as yours (and the parent above it) seem to believe that Detroit is down and must stay down. It's not that it must stay down, but rather that it most likely will. The only reason it was a successful city at one point is manufacturing. Manufacturing has since left, and it's very unlikely that an equally lucrative industry is going to be able to fill the gap. In general, it's much easier for small towns to become successful cities (as Detroit once did), than for decaying cities to make a comeback (as some people think Detroit will do soon).
  - personZ 12y ago
    Manufacturing has since left, and it's very unlikely that an equally lucrative industry is going to be able to fill the gap. By this measure, just about every American city is doomed. Except, I suppose, San Francisco, if we accept that every city is "winner takes all" (which it isn't and has never been). Detroit is a metro area about 4 million strong. It is the gateway for millions of Canadians, and to the Toronto area. It is midway between a number of great cities. It has abundant energy, geological and political stability, limited pests, and so on. It has a very large workforce, and despite the reputation, a very large educated workforce. I mean some of the commentary in here is just...weird. Someone else commented as if all industry is going to move South, as if winter is a significant economic factor (it isn't) to industry (aside from data centers and cooling, for that matter).
seanflyon 12y ago
> real Detroit If you insist that Detroit is defined by its failing communities and not by its successful ones then Detroit will always, by definition, be failing. To argue that Detroit is not making a "comeback" you must claim that either the successful areas are not growing or that they will not continue to grow.

autokad 12y ago

i think its the myspace of cities. i dont mean that as a snarky comment. I think once a city has an outflow of a certain magnitude, even if there are good things about the city it has already lost its ability to sustain structure.

hentrep 12y ago

Is this not the case for all "emerging markets"? This wouldn't be a story if Detroit had low crime, great infrastructure, low taxes, superb public transport, immaculate roads, and prestigious schools. All of the aforementioned would translate to increased costs of living. Is Dan Gilbert making money from this? Absolutely, but he's also the one that took on the initial risk. The cost for cheap, spacious housing and office space in Detroit is having to tolerate a phoenix city in the midst of an identity crisis; expecting something which resembles NYC or SF is silly. I grew up in Michigan and have been to Detroit numerous times, and what I've witnessed lately (in concentrated locations, of course) is exciting -- see http://techtowndetroit.org/ http://techtowndetroit.org/. Granted, there are certainly depressing and desolate areas of the city, but again that should be expected for a city that has seen massive emigration and decreased revenue. I am optimistic about the future of Detroit.

fennecfoxen 12y ago
There are a lot of differences between Detroit and a real emerging market. For one, higher minimum wages. For another, additional environmental and labor regulations (and while some of this may benefit society and some of it may not, much of it probably results in increased compliance costs.) For a third, a 41% corporate income tax rate (35% US + 6% Michigan, according to casual internet search). If you're going to pay the very high price of doing business in the US, it might be a better plan to locate yourself somewhere a little less wrecked where it actually buys you something.
- hentrep 12y ago
  "If you're going to pay the very high price of doing business in the US, it might be a better plan to locate yourself somewhere a little less wrecked where it actually buys you something." Your comparisons to traditional emerging markets are well taken, but your last sentence highlights my point perfectly. Detroit is much more than abandoned buildings and abject poverty. Of course those are the easiest things to focus on because they cater to strong emotions. Meanwhile, all of the positive aspects about Detroit are subsequently white-washed. Detroit is a massive city encompassing 143 square miles, and much of it is in dire condition, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Keep in mind that there are pockets of Detroit in which amazing people are building incredible and exciting things, typically in a highly bootstrapped fashion. Blanket statements like, "less wrecked" imply that Detroit in its entirety is wrecked. This is certainly not the case as illustrated by companies like Shinola and VC firms like Ludlow Ventures. For additional examples, see: http://www.growdetroit.com/detroit-startup-list/ http://www.growdetroit.com/detroit-startup-list/. Of course I am biased as a native Michigander, but for life in general I much prefer to focus on silver linings than frayed seams.

rmason 12y ago

Dan Gilbert wasn't the first person to notice he could buy Detroit skyscrapers for the price of one years rent in NYC. He's been criticized, even in Detroit, for buying them yet no one else was willing to take the risk. Like most things only in hindsight does it look like he got a screaming deal. Most of the knowledgeable real estate people are still unwilling to buy them and you're worried about Gilbert getting a profit? Note the Chinese are not only buying them but recently outbidding Gilbert. A city comes back in spurts and not all at once. After fifty years of trending down at an accelerating rate I've been arguing for several years no one in the press was seeing the story of the city's revival. Yet there are critics snarking that the entire city isn't back yet. It didn't decline equally and it won't return that way. All those high paying jobs that are moving downtown are also creating jobs in security, health care and restaurants. If you look carefully you can begin to see it happening elsewhere. Tear down those 70,000 blighted properties (which is beginning to happen) and you won't be able to deny in a few years that its happening all over. Detroit is Michigan's Northern Star and until it returns to prominence neither will Michigan.

grecy 12y ago

> Detroit has...poor roads, rush-hour traffic congestion, poor parking, worst schools, corrupt local government, full of blighted neighborhoods, many other terrible things. Compared to what? (I ask, because viewed from the perspective of developed countries, that's how much of the United States looks)

ocb 12y ago
Compared to the rest of the United States, obviously. And why the condescending tone?
- grecy 12y ago
  I asked that question because given the last sentence: > I am trying to see the reason why anyone would think it was a good idea to live or work there in its current condition. It's interesting to think that's what a lot of the US looks like to foreigners.