5 ms·

Interesting that someone would choose to be cryopreserved somewhere where there's no legal assisted suicide. Wouldn't your chances of being successfully revived

by mef 12y ago

Interesting that someone would choose to be cryopreserved somewhere where there's no legal assisted suicide. Wouldn't your chances of being successfully revived improve if you got cryopreserved while still alive?

PaulHoule 12y ago
See this http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/DoraKentCase.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/DoraKentCase.html
eudox 12y ago
Active shutdown is certainly preferable, but to the best of my knowledge is only legal in Switzerland.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder. Unless you're very ill then it is called euthanasia. Why invent new words when we have perfectly serviceable ones?
  - murbard2 12y ago
    Actually that would be called homicide. And why use other words? Because words are loaded with connotation that may not apply to the circumstance.
  - scarmig 12y ago
    If we're going to quibble about terminology, I'd point out that "assisted suicide" would come a lot closer than "murder" to describe that situation. Of course, in the POV of someone who believes in cryopreservation as a way to save lives, preventing it is almost tantamount to murder--probably falling somewhere above negligent homicide, since you'd actively be preventing someone from saving their own life. I say that as someone who thinks the cryo-folks are deeply delusional about their technology.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      If you kill someone after they paid you a lot of money to preserve your corpse the courts might not agree with the assisted suicide bit if your body was still functional. They'd more than likely call it murder too. I'm a firm believer in the preservation bit, I don't think it will scale and I totally do not believe in the resurrection bit. It's a bit like performing a magical trick where you smash somebody's watch in act one and you still haven't figured out how to do part two.
      - MichaelGG 12y ago
        At one point, a court might have ruled that your usage of a cigarette lighter to be witchcraft summoning fire demons. To use your analogy: You're getting on an airplane and the security guy says "no watches". You're now faced with the assured loss of an heirloom item. So you break it, and the guy lets you board. You figure eventually you may be able to reassemble it in some form. Like the Iranians did to the "destroyed" documents in the US Embassy there.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    Words have meaning. When we hit the edge of technology those meanings tends to be obscure or wrong and so we need a new word. Murder is so final, while this is more akind to shutting down a computer that you hope to be able to start up again. Hence active shutdown being a more appropriate idea.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Until someone is revived we can consider it final.
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        Well, the whole idea of cryopreservation is that it's a hedge against the progress of technology. One can't be sure we'll ever get to the required level of development (in my belief, we will inevitably, if we won't destroy our civilization beforehand), but it's still better than Just Dying, and - as opposed to religious afterlife vision - it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        In my view it is exactly equivalent to just dying until it has been proven otherwise. > it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle. Is it?
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        To quote from Wikipedia, "A central premise of cryonics is that long-term memory, personality, and identity are stored in durable cell structures and patterns within the brain that do not require continuous brain activity to survive.[13] This premise is generally accepted in medicine; it is known that under certain conditions the brain can stop functioning and still later recover with retention of long-term memory." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation What we can do today, is preserving the brain structure. What we can't do today is to restore the brain and body after prolonged preservation, and to fix whatever illnesses caused the patient to undergo this procedure in the first place. Both of those problems seem to be tractable with nanotech, which we know is real and works (we usually call it "life", but life is nothing but a nanotech that's not ours and we can't controll well enough yet). So at this point I'd say cryopreservation is a bet against continued technological progress (which is not bad, because not taking it means certainly dying), not an act of faith. One can argue against economics of such, and the cost a cryopreserved person imposes on the living, but comparing it to faith in God and resurrection is IMO wrong.
  - tim333 12y ago
    >That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder Well, it's not really called anything much at the moment as no one does it but certainly not all killing is called murder. You kill enemies with bombs, that's heroic service, civilians with bombs it's collateral damage, kill patients trying to save them medically then it's an unfortunate result, kill deliberately in a manner banned by your government then it's murder. For me suspending someone to save them would be closest to heroic service.
  - simias 12y ago
    Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). So not really, no. And you should really know better than replying with such trollbait, that's not contributing to the discussion in the slightest. This is the announcement of the death (?) of someone, not the place to argue ethics (or religion, because we all know that's what coming up next).
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      This is not the announcement of the death of someone. The title clearly reads that he's being cryopreserved. If it was about his death I would expect something that would announce that rather than his so-called preservation. This is the trans-humanist movement claiming this moment as theirs rather than an announcement of a good persons death. It's simply an Alcor advertorial, not a eulogy. Supposedly he's not really dead, so either we can react to the article and he'll read this in the future and laugh at me or we should mourn him because he really is dead. Make up your minds.
      - teraflop 12y ago
        A reasonable definition of death is "loss of consciousness and vital functions in a way that is impossible to reverse". By that definition, Hal Finney might be dead now but nobody really knows for sure, because the reversibility of current cryopreservation techniques is unknown. Just as in the case of someone who falls into a coma from which they'll probably never wake up, both mourning and hope are reasonable responses. I don't think it's fair to slam this announcement for choosing to put more emphasis on hope.
        jacquesm 12y ago
        I think it's perfectly fair to call someone whose head has just been cut off and frozen dead. If not there are going to be an awful lot of killers who froze their victims heads exonerated and those that pulled the plugs on the freezers will be in the docket. It's the world on its head. Mourning is a reasonable response. Advertising is not and this article does not contain a whole lot of mourning (I can't detect any, correct me if I'm wrong) but it certainly does contain a ton of advertising. Essentially it is not about the person at all except for the first 10 words or so.
- drcode 12y ago
  I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup sets up an office on a cruise ship or some other place so they can offer active shutdown to their customers.
  - ubernostrum 12y ago
    A ship is subject to the laws and regulations of the country in which it is registered, even when it is not operating in that country's waters.
  - im3w1l 12y ago
    I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup goes bankrupt and all its customers are 'killed'. Being famous provides some insurance against this I suppose.
    - drcode 12y ago
      There's been failed cryopreservation businesses before, I think, with exactly this problem. I think anyone who spends 200K on this today should expect to pay 200K again in a decade or two (if they make it that far) since at that point the "state of the art" will almost certainly be with a different company, and I doubt the failed company will give refunds.
- lilsunnybee 12y ago
  More than just Switzerland. From the Wikipedia euthanasia page: Jurisdictions where euthanasia or assisted suicide is legal include the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Estonia, Albania, the US states of Washington, Oregon and Montana, and, starting in 2015, the Canadian Province of Quebec. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia
- listic 12y ago
  It is amazing that no cryonics company seems to have investigated this possibility seriously. Well, the cryonics itself seems to be really under-developed, as well. I am planning to sign up for cryonics ASAP (as soon as I can afford it), and I would really prefer that stand-by and active shutdown were readily available options, but I'm afraid I would have to do all the research and preparation by myself, if I want it to become a reality. OTOH, the existence of a company Suspended Animation http://www.suspendedinc.com/ http://www.suspendedinc.com/ gives me hope. How could a company carve out a market for itself, selling additional services for cryonics, which by itself counts less than 300 patients preserved over its 47 year history - I don't know.
reasonattlm 12y ago
The cost of this would have been much greater, and present organizations are not really set up to transport people already cryopreserved, so doing it ad hoc would be especially expensive. Transport when it does happen tends to be a packaged in dry ice type of deal, with final procedures happening on site on arrival, potentially a day or two later in the case of long distances. Alcor recommends that those who can predict their end of life date with any accuracy move to be close to their HQ. A good cryopreservation, all other factors being equal, is all about time to fully vitrified for important tissues. Regulation makes that enormously difficult on one hand, but transport is also a real logistics hurdle. Also, in Finney's case the condition he suffered allowed for more self-willed timing in these matters than is usually the case. It isn't a pleasant thing to have to do to yourself by any means, but that is what it comes to when it is government employees who are the people who decide on every aspect of your life, not you. One recommendation from people in the cryonics industry in the past has been that when you are on the final downward spiral to stop eating and drinking so as to time the end yourself and thus ensure much better odds of a good preservation, organized and timely. Very rational, as the time from death to vitrification is so very critical, but again something forced upon people by uncaring bureaucrats and laws that prevent self-determination in end of life decisions.

by mef 12y ago

PaulHoule 12y ago

See this http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/DoraKentCase.html http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/DoraKentCase.html

eudox 12y ago

Active shutdown is certainly preferable, but to the best of my knowledge is only legal in Switzerland.

jacquesm 12y ago
That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder. Unless you're very ill then it is called euthanasia. Why invent new words when we have perfectly serviceable ones?
- murbard2 12y ago
  Actually that would be called homicide. And why use other words? Because words are loaded with connotation that may not apply to the circumstance.
- scarmig 12y ago
  If we're going to quibble about terminology, I'd point out that "assisted suicide" would come a lot closer than "murder" to describe that situation. Of course, in the POV of someone who believes in cryopreservation as a way to save lives, preventing it is almost tantamount to murder--probably falling somewhere above negligent homicide, since you'd actively be preventing someone from saving their own life. I say that as someone who thinks the cryo-folks are deeply delusional about their technology.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    If you kill someone after they paid you a lot of money to preserve your corpse the courts might not agree with the assisted suicide bit if your body was still functional. They'd more than likely call it murder too. I'm a firm believer in the preservation bit, I don't think it will scale and I totally do not believe in the resurrection bit. It's a bit like performing a magical trick where you smash somebody's watch in act one and you still haven't figured out how to do part two.
    - MichaelGG 12y ago
      At one point, a court might have ruled that your usage of a cigarette lighter to be witchcraft summoning fire demons. To use your analogy: You're getting on an airplane and the security guy says "no watches". You're now faced with the assured loss of an heirloom item. So you break it, and the guy lets you board. You figure eventually you may be able to reassemble it in some form. Like the Iranians did to the "destroyed" documents in the US Embassy there.
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Words have meaning. When we hit the edge of technology those meanings tends to be obscure or wrong and so we need a new word. Murder is so final, while this is more akind to shutting down a computer that you hope to be able to start up again. Hence active shutdown being a more appropriate idea.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Until someone is revived we can consider it final.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      Well, the whole idea of cryopreservation is that it's a hedge against the progress of technology. One can't be sure we'll ever get to the required level of development (in my belief, we will inevitably, if we won't destroy our civilization beforehand), but it's still better than Just Dying, and - as opposed to religious afterlife vision - it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        In my view it is exactly equivalent to just dying until it has been proven otherwise. > it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle. Is it?
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        To quote from Wikipedia, "A central premise of cryonics is that long-term memory, personality, and identity are stored in durable cell structures and patterns within the brain that do not require continuous brain activity to survive.[13] This premise is generally accepted in medicine; it is known that under certain conditions the brain can stop functioning and still later recover with retention of long-term memory." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation What we can do today, is preserving the brain structure. What we can't do today is to restore the brain and body after prolonged preservation, and to fix whatever illnesses caused the patient to undergo this procedure in the first place. Both of those problems seem to be tractable with nanotech, which we know is real and works (we usually call it "life", but life is nothing but a nanotech that's not ours and we can't controll well enough yet). So at this point I'd say cryopreservation is a bet against continued technological progress (which is not bad, because not taking it means certainly dying), not an act of faith. One can argue against economics of such, and the cost a cryopreserved person imposes on the living, but comparing it to faith in God and resurrection is IMO wrong.
- tim333 12y ago
  >That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder Well, it's not really called anything much at the moment as no one does it but certainly not all killing is called murder. You kill enemies with bombs, that's heroic service, civilians with bombs it's collateral damage, kill patients trying to save them medically then it's an unfortunate result, kill deliberately in a manner banned by your government then it's murder. For me suspending someone to save them would be closest to heroic service.
- simias 12y ago
  Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). So not really, no. And you should really know better than replying with such trollbait, that's not contributing to the discussion in the slightest. This is the announcement of the death (?) of someone, not the place to argue ethics (or religion, because we all know that's what coming up next).
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    This is not the announcement of the death of someone. The title clearly reads that he's being cryopreserved. If it was about his death I would expect something that would announce that rather than his so-called preservation. This is the trans-humanist movement claiming this moment as theirs rather than an announcement of a good persons death. It's simply an Alcor advertorial, not a eulogy. Supposedly he's not really dead, so either we can react to the article and he'll read this in the future and laugh at me or we should mourn him because he really is dead. Make up your minds.
    - teraflop 12y ago
      A reasonable definition of death is "loss of consciousness and vital functions in a way that is impossible to reverse". By that definition, Hal Finney might be dead now but nobody really knows for sure, because the reversibility of current cryopreservation techniques is unknown. Just as in the case of someone who falls into a coma from which they'll probably never wake up, both mourning and hope are reasonable responses. I don't think it's fair to slam this announcement for choosing to put more emphasis on hope.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        I think it's perfectly fair to call someone whose head has just been cut off and frozen dead. If not there are going to be an awful lot of killers who froze their victims heads exonerated and those that pulled the plugs on the freezers will be in the docket. It's the world on its head. Mourning is a reasonable response. Advertising is not and this article does not contain a whole lot of mourning (I can't detect any, correct me if I'm wrong) but it certainly does contain a ton of advertising. Essentially it is not about the person at all except for the first 10 words or so.
drcode 12y ago
I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup sets up an office on a cruise ship or some other place so they can offer active shutdown to their customers.
- ubernostrum 12y ago
  A ship is subject to the laws and regulations of the country in which it is registered, even when it is not operating in that country's waters.
- im3w1l 12y ago
  I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup goes bankrupt and all its customers are 'killed'. Being famous provides some insurance against this I suppose.
  - drcode 12y ago
    There's been failed cryopreservation businesses before, I think, with exactly this problem. I think anyone who spends 200K on this today should expect to pay 200K again in a decade or two (if they make it that far) since at that point the "state of the art" will almost certainly be with a different company, and I doubt the failed company will give refunds.
lilsunnybee 12y ago
More than just Switzerland. From the Wikipedia euthanasia page: Jurisdictions where euthanasia or assisted suicide is legal include the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Estonia, Albania, the US states of Washington, Oregon and Montana, and, starting in 2015, the Canadian Province of Quebec. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia
listic 12y ago
It is amazing that no cryonics company seems to have investigated this possibility seriously. Well, the cryonics itself seems to be really under-developed, as well. I am planning to sign up for cryonics ASAP (as soon as I can afford it), and I would really prefer that stand-by and active shutdown were readily available options, but I'm afraid I would have to do all the research and preparation by myself, if I want it to become a reality. OTOH, the existence of a company Suspended Animation http://www.suspendedinc.com/ http://www.suspendedinc.com/ gives me hope. How could a company carve out a market for itself, selling additional services for cryonics, which by itself counts less than 300 patients preserved over its 47 year history - I don't know.

reasonattlm 12y ago

The cost of this would have been much greater, and present organizations are not really set up to transport people already cryopreserved, so doing it ad hoc would be especially expensive. Transport when it does happen tends to be a packaged in dry ice type of deal, with final procedures happening on site on arrival, potentially a day or two later in the case of long distances. Alcor recommends that those who can predict their end of life date with any accuracy move to be close to their HQ. A good cryopreservation, all other factors being equal, is all about time to fully vitrified for important tissues. Regulation makes that enormously difficult on one hand, but transport is also a real logistics hurdle. Also, in Finney's case the condition he suffered allowed for more self-willed timing in these matters than is usually the case. It isn't a pleasant thing to have to do to yourself by any means, but that is what it comes to when it is government employees who are the people who decide on every aspect of your life, not you. One recommendation from people in the cryonics industry in the past has been that when you are on the final downward spiral to stop eating and drinking so as to time the end yourself and thus ensure much better odds of a good preservation, organized and timely. Very rational, as the time from death to vitrification is so very critical, but again something forced upon people by uncaring bureaucrats and laws that prevent self-determination in end of life decisions.