5 ms·

Agreed, especially about integration. Many web apps expose their functionality with RESTful JSON APIs or similar. It seems to me that integrating data & functio

by kipple 12y ago

Agreed, especially about integration. Many web apps expose their functionality with RESTful JSON APIs or similar. It seems to me that integrating data & functionality from across web apps is far more common than in the desktop setting. I've never built a desktop app, but just from a users perspective most of my desktop apps are isolated pieces of functionality while web apps are entangled in the greater web community. My background is mostly web app development, and when I started I was using open technologies such as PHP and NodeJS. This summer I'm doing some work in Visual Studio with a C# .NET MVC 4000 web app. Visual Studio is a slick interface _mostly_ with some great convenience _usually_ but overall it feels suffocating compared to slapping together random tangles of open web technologies. I like the messy open standards...

rimantas 12y ago
And many non web apps happily use RESTful JSON APIs too.
ewzimm 12y ago
You can even compare web standards to the most ubiquitous formats used in the most ubiquitous desktop programs. MS Office formats still cause people problems when they try to open complex files in older versions of Office or compatible suites. Whereas if data is stored as JSON, you can be sure that anybody will be able to access the data correctly in any of the thousands of apps that handle JSON, and they'll be able to handle it indefinitely.
- waps 12y ago
  I don't often agree with Richard Stallman, but ... http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.comp... The TLDR is simple : web apps makes Unisys, Microsoft, Apple, ... look like heroes of Freedom, even during their most anticompetitive days. The worst behaviour microsoft ever exhibited is now standard practice. That's what web apps have gotten us. That, of course, in addition to the fact that saying that the tools suck does not quite do justice to just how bad web development tools are.
  - ewzimm 12y ago
    I do often agree with Richard Stallman, but... These are problems with particular web apps, not web apps in general. I host lots of web apps on my own servers, and they are just as free as any software, but I can access them anywhere from any device. In cases where web apps are non-free, I would have to say it's better than having them installed locally. Web browsers do quite a bit to keep apps in jails where they can't access and affect the rest of the system in the same way a local program can.
    - waps 12y ago
      I disagree. The difference being : locally installed non-free web app app: not yours (BUT: communication between author and app is impossible if you want it to be) data: yours (meaning you can delete it) remotely installed non-free app app: not yours, and you can't prevent the author from updating their app under your feet. And the author can do nearly anything, meaning any encryption on your data is useless. data: not yours (meaning the author can read, change, delete, and you CANNOT unless the author, and anyone with a global root certificate (like Saudi Arabia, dozens of companies that have committed breaches of trust, ...) can mitm you, and gain the author's access to your data)
      - ewzimm 12y ago
        Non-free web apps definitely come with their own range of problems. Data doesn't need to be out of your control though. JavaScript is usually run locally, so there are lots of calculations being performed by your computer before it reaches the remote server. For example, Mega encrypts data client-side before it is archived online. Just like with regular non-free software, you have to trust what it is doing. The best way to deal with these problems without throwing away non-free software would be to have security functions like encryption performed client-side with free software. I agree that server-run non-free software is neither safe nor private, but I still believe that this is the flaw of particular programs, not web-based software in general. It only emphasizes what a need there is for further development of open standards in web apps. But the ability to use a cross-platform browser as a universal client and run software that is built on the advantages of networking is a huge bonus for software in general. Free software just needs to catch up in a few areas, but in general it is dominating the backbone of the web. Now we just need to push that freedom forward to the user.

by kipple 12y ago

rimantas 12y ago

And many non web apps happily use RESTful JSON APIs too.

ewzimm 12y ago

You can even compare web standards to the most ubiquitous formats used in the most ubiquitous desktop programs. MS Office formats still cause people problems when they try to open complex files in older versions of Office or compatible suites. Whereas if data is stored as JSON, you can be sure that anybody will be able to access the data correctly in any of the thousands of apps that handle JSON, and they'll be able to handle it indefinitely.

waps 12y ago
I don't often agree with Richard Stallman, but ... http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.comp... The TLDR is simple : web apps makes Unisys, Microsoft, Apple, ... look like heroes of Freedom, even during their most anticompetitive days. The worst behaviour microsoft ever exhibited is now standard practice. That's what web apps have gotten us. That, of course, in addition to the fact that saying that the tools suck does not quite do justice to just how bad web development tools are.
- ewzimm 12y ago
  I do often agree with Richard Stallman, but... These are problems with particular web apps, not web apps in general. I host lots of web apps on my own servers, and they are just as free as any software, but I can access them anywhere from any device. In cases where web apps are non-free, I would have to say it's better than having them installed locally. Web browsers do quite a bit to keep apps in jails where they can't access and affect the rest of the system in the same way a local program can.
  - waps 12y ago
    I disagree. The difference being : locally installed non-free web app app: not yours (BUT: communication between author and app is impossible if you want it to be) data: yours (meaning you can delete it) remotely installed non-free app app: not yours, and you can't prevent the author from updating their app under your feet. And the author can do nearly anything, meaning any encryption on your data is useless. data: not yours (meaning the author can read, change, delete, and you CANNOT unless the author, and anyone with a global root certificate (like Saudi Arabia, dozens of companies that have committed breaches of trust, ...) can mitm you, and gain the author's access to your data)
    - ewzimm 12y ago
      Non-free web apps definitely come with their own range of problems. Data doesn't need to be out of your control though. JavaScript is usually run locally, so there are lots of calculations being performed by your computer before it reaches the remote server. For example, Mega encrypts data client-side before it is archived online. Just like with regular non-free software, you have to trust what it is doing. The best way to deal with these problems without throwing away non-free software would be to have security functions like encryption performed client-side with free software. I agree that server-run non-free software is neither safe nor private, but I still believe that this is the flaw of particular programs, not web-based software in general. It only emphasizes what a need there is for further development of open standards in web apps. But the ability to use a cross-platform browser as a universal client and run software that is built on the advantages of networking is a huge bonus for software in general. Free software just needs to catch up in a few areas, but in general it is dominating the backbone of the web. Now we just need to push that freedom forward to the user.