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How the 'Kung Fu Fighting' Melody Came to Represent Asia

112 points by user_235711 12y ago

chromaton 12y ago
This tune has its own Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff . This site has the definitive in depth exploration of the Oriental Riff: http://chinoiserie.atspace.com/index.html http://chinoiserie.atspace.com/index.html .
teddyh 12y ago
For a piece of music with a similar association, see The Streets of Cairo, or the Poor Little Country Maid¹ which for many have come to symbolize ancient Egypt¹. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets_of_Cairo,_or_the_Poor_Little_Country_Maid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets_of_Cairo,_or_the_P...
- colanderman 12y ago
  Don't forget also the "circus" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators the "camping" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Banjos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Banjos the "end of the world" song: "O Fortuna" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana_(Orff) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana_(Orff) the "nautical" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sailor's_Hornpipe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sailor's_Hornpipe the "Italian" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella_Napoletana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella_Napoletana the "morning" song: "Ranz des Vaches" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell_Overture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell_Overture Just the first couple seconds of any of those songs are universally recognizable and commonly used to set scenes. I wonder, is there a stereotypical "American" riff used in Chinese media? The beginning of "Yankee Doodle" or something?
  - genericuser 12y ago
    "Hail to the Chief" comes to mind as used for setting scenes in America in many movies. Usually scenes having to do with the character playing the president, but in a lot movies that is the main time they need to say 'hey this america people'
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - acheron 12y ago
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardSnippet http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardSnippet has a long list.
    - cstuder 12y ago
      Please refrain from linking to TV Tropes during work hours, thank you.
      - willthames 12y ago
        On an international site (it's currently 18:30 on Friday evening where I am, for example), populated by people who might not necessarily do 9-5 Mon-Fri, I don't think there's any such thing as non-work-hours If you mean 'please don't link to TV Tropes', say so.
        thisjepisje 12y ago
        I think it was a joke.
  - shaurz 12y ago
    The X Factor really spoiled O Fortuna for me.
    - afafsd 12y ago
      Most things have spoiled O Fortuna for me (though I've never watched the X Factor). When I listen to Carmina Burana I usually skip to track 2.
- gambiting 12y ago
  I have literally never heard this before. It has absolutely no association in my head whatsoever.
morley 12y ago
Carl Douglas and Biddu are ostensibly both alive; has anyone asked them how they came upon the riff?
- bmm6o 12y ago
  The riff predates the song. According to the NPR piece it's been in use to signify oriental culture since at least 1930.
- autokad 12y ago
  yeah, the title was just for click bait. I doubt the kung fu fighting song had little to do with its popularity in use, as it was already widely used.
robbiet480 12y ago
This is super weird, but I just saw the clip of this from Scrubs, this morning. Interesting to get the back story in such a short time span. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbXbBoRKLVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbXbBoRKLVU
- autokad 12y ago
  not sure why this was downvoted, but upvoted it into the black.
  - akamaka 12y ago
    I'm not usually interested in reading idle musings about what the commenter was doing today, and I tend to downvote those. I feel like HN users increasingly treat the comments as a place to just spit out whatever is on their mind. That's great in a regular conversation, but I don't want the comments section to turn into a place for conversations. I'd rather see fewer, more informative comments.
    - autokad 12y ago
      its not off topic nor offensive. people trying to force other people what to say and how to express themselves to suit what they want is exactly the problem we have today. however, it would make sense to give people an option to choose what type of comment they are leaving (muse, additional context, rant, etc) and allow users to filter which ones they see.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
chillingeffect 12y ago
mfw "the pentatonic scale." Pentatonic is a form of scales. There are innumerable pentatonic scales, although practically, it's bounded by about 50!/45!. [0] And in everyday 12-tone chromatic use, there are at least 5 different versions [1]. Even in Asian scales, there are numerous pentatonic scales in use. [0] presuming a pitch resolution of 2%. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGYvHd0qo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGYvHd0qo Blues music, for example, uses pentatonic scales, yet blues music does not sound like Thai music. Now that technical matter has been cleared, I find it hilarious and symptomatic that researchers didn't look into any CHINESE MUSIC to see if there were any sounds that might have influenced Western composers. For example, just listening to music played on a Gu Chin [ 2 ] reveals a number of similar intervals (such as single step motion and parallel fourths) and stark tonality that could easily be recognized in attempts by Western composers to imitate and integrate Chinese music. That article was less of a "how it happened" and more a "that it happened." The seething, suspicious racial tension underneath was distracting and needless. Everyone should ignore it (and probably the rest of NPR) and simply enjoy Chinese music for what it is: interesting and beautiful. sigh. [ 2 ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin
- eeaamon 12y ago
  you know more and have suggested more jumping-off points for further research than anyone else in this thread - so of course your comment is near the bottom. this site sometimes, sigh.
  - rspeer 12y ago
    The comment is smug, unhelpful, and very misleading about the pentatonic scale. Okay, you could call any five notes a pentatonic scale, but don't let that distract you from the pentatonic scale, the set of five notes that appears in many cultures for solid music theoretical reasons. The linked video about blues is using the same scale, just with the notes in a different order. Different modes are not different scales. D F G A C is the same scale as C D F G A. We should be interested in the fact that blues and Thai music use the same intervals, not dismissive. The comment also continues to ramble through several kinda-music-theory-esque statements whose aim is not to inform, but just to make the author appear smart. Yep. This site sometimes.
vacri 12y ago
It seems to me that how it's played is almost as important as the melody itself. Playing it just now on a clean guitar and a piano, it's not all that evocative of China. Yes, maybe a little bit, but it does sound 'wrong'. Curious.
dnautics 12y ago
Similarly, there's nothing turkish about "Rondo alla Turca" by Mozart, as illustrated hilariously by Igudesman and Joo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNtYYuWILNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNtYYuWILNE
- acheron 12y ago
  It's more complicated than that. Mozart was following a "Turkish"/"Janissary" style of music popular in Europe at the time. Indeed the style was pretty much unrelated to actual music from Turkey, but there's a history of how it developed that started with Turkish Janissary bands. (More obviously in orchestral "Turkish" music than in Mozart's piano sonata, where compositions used exotic instruments like bass drums.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29
rsl7 12y ago
I heard a little of the backstory on this riff on John Hodgeman's judge podcast. good stuff.
johan_larson 12y ago
OK, so it's not a Chinese tune. What would be a suitable replacement? Ideally something authentically Chinese, broadly recognizable, and somehow representative of Chinese music.
- PetitPrince 12y ago
  What about looking at what Carl Sagan et al. put in the Golden Record on Voyager 1 [1] ? They put a beautiful piece of zither [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden_Record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lReQHyOYgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lReQHyOYgU

112 points by user_235711 12y ago

This tune has its own Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_riff . This site has the definitive in depth exploration of the Oriental Riff: http://chinoiserie.atspace.com/index.html http://chinoiserie.atspace.com/index.html .

teddyh 12y ago

For a piece of music with a similar association, see The Streets of Cairo, or the Poor Little Country Maid¹ which for many have come to symbolize ancient Egypt¹. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets_of_Cairo,_or_the_Poor_Little_Country_Maid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Streets_of_Cairo,_or_the_P...

colanderman 12y ago
Don't forget also the "circus" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrance_of_the_Gladiators the "camping" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Banjos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dueling_Banjos the "end of the world" song: "O Fortuna" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana_(Orff) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana_(Orff) the "nautical" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sailor's_Hornpipe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sailor's_Hornpipe the "Italian" song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella_Napoletana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantella_Napoletana the "morning" song: "Ranz des Vaches" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell_Overture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tell_Overture Just the first couple seconds of any of those songs are universally recognizable and commonly used to set scenes. I wonder, is there a stereotypical "American" riff used in Chinese media? The beginning of "Yankee Doodle" or something?
- genericuser 12y ago
  "Hail to the Chief" comes to mind as used for setting scenes in America in many movies. Usually scenes having to do with the character playing the president, but in a lot movies that is the main time they need to say 'hey this america people'
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- acheron 12y ago
  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardSnippet http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardSnippet has a long list.
  - cstuder 12y ago
    Please refrain from linking to TV Tropes during work hours, thank you.
    - willthames 12y ago
      On an international site (it's currently 18:30 on Friday evening where I am, for example), populated by people who might not necessarily do 9-5 Mon-Fri, I don't think there's any such thing as non-work-hours If you mean 'please don't link to TV Tropes', say so.
      - thisjepisje 12y ago
        I think it was a joke.
- shaurz 12y ago
  The X Factor really spoiled O Fortuna for me.
  - afafsd 12y ago
    Most things have spoiled O Fortuna for me (though I've never watched the X Factor). When I listen to Carmina Burana I usually skip to track 2.
gambiting 12y ago
I have literally never heard this before. It has absolutely no association in my head whatsoever.

morley 12y ago

Carl Douglas and Biddu are ostensibly both alive; has anyone asked them how they came upon the riff?

bmm6o 12y ago
The riff predates the song. According to the NPR piece it's been in use to signify oriental culture since at least 1930.
autokad 12y ago
yeah, the title was just for click bait. I doubt the kung fu fighting song had little to do with its popularity in use, as it was already widely used.

robbiet480 12y ago

This is super weird, but I just saw the clip of this from Scrubs, this morning. Interesting to get the back story in such a short time span. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbXbBoRKLVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbXbBoRKLVU

autokad 12y ago
not sure why this was downvoted, but upvoted it into the black.
- akamaka 12y ago
  I'm not usually interested in reading idle musings about what the commenter was doing today, and I tend to downvote those. I feel like HN users increasingly treat the comments as a place to just spit out whatever is on their mind. That's great in a regular conversation, but I don't want the comments section to turn into a place for conversations. I'd rather see fewer, more informative comments.
  - autokad 12y ago
    its not off topic nor offensive. people trying to force other people what to say and how to express themselves to suit what they want is exactly the problem we have today. however, it would make sense to give people an option to choose what type of comment they are leaving (muse, additional context, rant, etc) and allow users to filter which ones they see.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

chillingeffect 12y ago

mfw "the pentatonic scale." Pentatonic is a form of scales. There are innumerable pentatonic scales, although practically, it's bounded by about 50!/45!. [0] And in everyday 12-tone chromatic use, there are at least 5 different versions [1]. Even in Asian scales, there are numerous pentatonic scales in use. [0] presuming a pitch resolution of 2%. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGYvHd0qo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVbGYvHd0qo Blues music, for example, uses pentatonic scales, yet blues music does not sound like Thai music. Now that technical matter has been cleared, I find it hilarious and symptomatic that researchers didn't look into any CHINESE MUSIC to see if there were any sounds that might have influenced Western composers. For example, just listening to music played on a Gu Chin [ 2 ] reveals a number of similar intervals (such as single step motion and parallel fourths) and stark tonality that could easily be recognized in attempts by Western composers to imitate and integrate Chinese music. That article was less of a "how it happened" and more a "that it happened." The seething, suspicious racial tension underneath was distracting and needless. Everyone should ignore it (and probably the rest of NPR) and simply enjoy Chinese music for what it is: interesting and beautiful. sigh. [ 2 ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin

eeaamon 12y ago
you know more and have suggested more jumping-off points for further research than anyone else in this thread - so of course your comment is near the bottom. this site sometimes, sigh.
- rspeer 12y ago
  The comment is smug, unhelpful, and very misleading about the pentatonic scale. Okay, you could call any five notes a pentatonic scale, but don't let that distract you from the pentatonic scale, the set of five notes that appears in many cultures for solid music theoretical reasons. The linked video about blues is using the same scale, just with the notes in a different order. Different modes are not different scales. D F G A C is the same scale as C D F G A. We should be interested in the fact that blues and Thai music use the same intervals, not dismissive. The comment also continues to ramble through several kinda-music-theory-esque statements whose aim is not to inform, but just to make the author appear smart. Yep. This site sometimes.

vacri 12y ago

It seems to me that how it's played is almost as important as the melody itself. Playing it just now on a clean guitar and a piano, it's not all that evocative of China. Yes, maybe a little bit, but it does sound 'wrong'. Curious.

dnautics 12y ago

Similarly, there's nothing turkish about "Rondo alla Turca" by Mozart, as illustrated hilariously by Igudesman and Joo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNtYYuWILNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNtYYuWILNE

acheron 12y ago
It's more complicated than that. Mozart was following a "Turkish"/"Janissary" style of music popular in Europe at the time. Indeed the style was pretty much unrelated to actual music from Turkey, but there's a history of how it developed that started with Turkish Janissary bands. (More obviously in orchestral "Turkish" music than in Mozart's piano sonata, where compositions used exotic instruments like bass drums.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29

rsl7 12y ago

I heard a little of the backstory on this riff on John Hodgeman's judge podcast. good stuff.

johan_larson 12y ago

OK, so it's not a Chinese tune. What would be a suitable replacement? Ideally something authentically Chinese, broadly recognizable, and somehow representative of Chinese music.

PetitPrince 12y ago
What about looking at what Carl Sagan et al. put in the Golden Record on Voyager 1 [1] ? They put a beautiful piece of zither [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden_Record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_Voyager_Golden... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lReQHyOYgU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lReQHyOYgU