4 ms·

The last people in the world you want managing your keys. Why don't you just send them directly to the NSA ?

blueskin_ 12y ago
As much as I generally distrust google with privacy when it comes to actually handing over data, in this case it's an open protocol that has just been drafted by google; anyone can run a server or make their own implementation. It also never touches private keys, only public. If you want a public key to have limited distribution, you don't put it on a keyserver, and instead only exchange it with the people you would like to in person or over some other verified and secure channel. It does have a somewhat anti-privacy feature in that if I understand it correctly, it keeps a record of messages between participants (in the sense of a record existing that a message was exchanged although not the content), but that level of data is already accessible to NSA/GCHQ anyway.
- blueking 12y ago
  You think google can write a proposal like this without the NSA getting involved ? The fact that they are preserving metadata is revealing and meaningful. Its another PR stunt. Google can never never be trusted again. They publicly lied about PRISM, and they got caught. These people have no business making security protocols for us.
  - blueskin_ 12y ago
    I wasn't implying any trust in google on my part (I didn't trust them even before PRISM, but that shut the door on the chance of my ever trusting them again), and chances are this will never progress beyond a draft spec, but there isn't any real way to implement something like this without doing so. the NSA would find the block chain of this helpful, yes, but it isn't data they don't already have unless it is somehow extended to non-email messaging as well.
    - blueking 12y ago
      Thats how google works. Piecemeal. You think loon was about internet for the poor and oppressed ? Thats just how they get their foot in the door. Im sure google just wanted to write a draft spec for the fun of it. Google is a front for US intelligence. We should give no quarter. Shun them.
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        At the risk of sounding like a fanboy apologist, I must say you're making a lot of serious accusations against a one of the most benevolent company in the history of mankind. Some serious evidence should follow. Picking on Project Loon... come on, is there anything Google could do that you wouldn't immediately label as evil forefront of US intelligence?
        blueking 12y ago
        The do no evil line is bullshit. This is not a benevolent company by any standard. The services are not free, you are just paying in a different currency. Here is more on loon and look further up for links to the PRISM slides and documentation showing the companies involved including google were compensated financially by the NSA. The evidence is damning. http://m.slashdot.org/story/194413 http://m.slashdot.org/story/194413 Look the bottom line here is these guys betrayed us. They are traitors, and we need to cut them out of our future.
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        > The do no evil line is bullshit. This is not a benevolent company by any standard. From the linked Slashdot article - Google patented Loon-related technology, describing it "as just the ticket for those well-to-do enough to pay a tiered-pricing premium to get faster internet access while attending concerts, conferences, air shows, music festivals, and sporting events where a facility's overtaxed Wi-Fi simply won't do." Picking on this is like saying that Elon Musk is an evil liar, because if he really cared about good of humanity and electric transport for the masses he surely wouldn't start with an superexpensive car for ultra rich, and then move to expensive car for moderatly-rich. Obviously, the whole argument about "Roadster bankrolling Model S bankrolling $35k Sedan" is just a bunch of lies trying to hide how evil he is. That's basically what I'm reading from your argument. You know, altruism involves money, and quite often the best way to do something good is to make it profitable. > Look the bottom line here is these guys betrayed us. They are traitors, and we need to cut them out of our future. If so, then long, long before Google you need to get rid of GoDaddy, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, BMW, General Motors, General Electric, Coca Cola, Nestle, Walmart, every other mom and pop store and pretty much 90% of other companies who betrayed us in many more ways, heavily documented and not alleged. Seriously, saying that Google Is Bad is nothing but a signalling game around here.
  - skj 12y ago
    What statement did Google make, regarding PRISM, that was a lie? And what evidence caused them to get caught?
    - blueking 12y ago
      http://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-ceo-larry-page-issues-statement-on-prism/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-ceo-larry-page-issues-sta... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/m/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-... http://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-others-millions-1188615332 http://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-other... They are lying through their teeth. As you should know skj, being a google employee.
      - skj 12y ago
        What is the actual lie?
        denom 12y ago
        More to the point, what is the truth? Google leadership post 9/11 knew what "certifying" their communication systems meant and took the money to do it. Whether they knew that the program was named Prism is irrelevant, in my opinion.
        skj 12y ago
        Google responds to legal requests for information. The whole PRISM scandal was indicating that the NSA had some kind of direct link into the databases themselves. This assertion is what Google denied, and still denies. There's been a bit of a wandering definition for PRISM, from "they have NSA software with root access to all machines!" to "they receive LEO requests for information, which they review, and sometimes fulfill." The former is untrue, and the latter is true.
        ChrisAntaki 12y ago
- yutah 12y ago
  Google would not give up the ability to see email content... maybe they would analyze them locally on your phone instead of on a remote server (that might even save them from buying a few server too)
  - magicalist 12y ago
    This is part of End-To-End[1]. There's no way for their code to see the email contents, even locally in the browser. That's the whole point, in fact. [1] https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/ https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/
    - sp332 12y ago
      But isn't keyword-based advertising their only revenue source from non-"Apps for Business" accounts?
    - yutah 12y ago
      If you can see your emails on your Android device and Google is admin on your device, why do you say that it is impossible for them to read your emails? I don't mean that they could read them in the cloud but if they can read them locally on your Android device and for example they could send a message back to Google saying "I think this guy should get ads for a new router".... but of course they could do much worst (they could send whole messages back for example).
      - 8475693 12y ago
        End-to-end is a browser extension that doesn't work on Android.
        yutah 12y ago
        that is probably because end-to-end is not fully implemented yet...
      - blueking 12y ago
        Android was designed to leak as much information about the user as possible all the time, even to third parties. Spy satellites have less invasive software.

As much as I generally distrust google with privacy when it comes to actually handing over data, in this case it's an open protocol that has just been drafted by google; anyone can run a server or make their own implementation. It also never touches private keys, only public. If you want a public key to have limited distribution, you don't put it on a keyserver, and instead only exchange it with the people you would like to in person or over some other verified and secure channel. It does have a somewhat anti-privacy feature in that if I understand it correctly, it keeps a record of messages between participants (in the sense of a record existing that a message was exchanged although not the content), but that level of data is already accessible to NSA/GCHQ anyway.

blueking 12y ago
You think google can write a proposal like this without the NSA getting involved ? The fact that they are preserving metadata is revealing and meaningful. Its another PR stunt. Google can never never be trusted again. They publicly lied about PRISM, and they got caught. These people have no business making security protocols for us.
- blueskin_ 12y ago
  I wasn't implying any trust in google on my part (I didn't trust them even before PRISM, but that shut the door on the chance of my ever trusting them again), and chances are this will never progress beyond a draft spec, but there isn't any real way to implement something like this without doing so. the NSA would find the block chain of this helpful, yes, but it isn't data they don't already have unless it is somehow extended to non-email messaging as well.
  - blueking 12y ago
    Thats how google works. Piecemeal. You think loon was about internet for the poor and oppressed ? Thats just how they get their foot in the door. Im sure google just wanted to write a draft spec for the fun of it. Google is a front for US intelligence. We should give no quarter. Shun them.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      At the risk of sounding like a fanboy apologist, I must say you're making a lot of serious accusations against a one of the most benevolent company in the history of mankind. Some serious evidence should follow. Picking on Project Loon... come on, is there anything Google could do that you wouldn't immediately label as evil forefront of US intelligence?
      - blueking 12y ago
        The do no evil line is bullshit. This is not a benevolent company by any standard. The services are not free, you are just paying in a different currency. Here is more on loon and look further up for links to the PRISM slides and documentation showing the companies involved including google were compensated financially by the NSA. The evidence is damning. http://m.slashdot.org/story/194413 http://m.slashdot.org/story/194413 Look the bottom line here is these guys betrayed us. They are traitors, and we need to cut them out of our future.
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        > The do no evil line is bullshit. This is not a benevolent company by any standard. From the linked Slashdot article - Google patented Loon-related technology, describing it "as just the ticket for those well-to-do enough to pay a tiered-pricing premium to get faster internet access while attending concerts, conferences, air shows, music festivals, and sporting events where a facility's overtaxed Wi-Fi simply won't do." Picking on this is like saying that Elon Musk is an evil liar, because if he really cared about good of humanity and electric transport for the masses he surely wouldn't start with an superexpensive car for ultra rich, and then move to expensive car for moderatly-rich. Obviously, the whole argument about "Roadster bankrolling Model S bankrolling $35k Sedan" is just a bunch of lies trying to hide how evil he is. That's basically what I'm reading from your argument. You know, altruism involves money, and quite often the best way to do something good is to make it profitable. > Look the bottom line here is these guys betrayed us. They are traitors, and we need to cut them out of our future. If so, then long, long before Google you need to get rid of GoDaddy, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, BMW, General Motors, General Electric, Coca Cola, Nestle, Walmart, every other mom and pop store and pretty much 90% of other companies who betrayed us in many more ways, heavily documented and not alleged. Seriously, saying that Google Is Bad is nothing but a signalling game around here.
- skj 12y ago
  What statement did Google make, regarding PRISM, that was a lie? And what evidence caused them to get caught?
  - blueking 12y ago
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-ceo-larry-page-issues-statement-on-prism/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-ceo-larry-page-issues-sta... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/m/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-... http://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-others-millions-1188615332 http://gizmodo.com/confirmed-nsa-paid-google-microsoft-other... They are lying through their teeth. As you should know skj, being a google employee.
    - skj 12y ago
      What is the actual lie?
      - denom 12y ago
        More to the point, what is the truth? Google leadership post 9/11 knew what "certifying" their communication systems meant and took the money to do it. Whether they knew that the program was named Prism is irrelevant, in my opinion.
        skj 12y ago
        Google responds to legal requests for information. The whole PRISM scandal was indicating that the NSA had some kind of direct link into the databases themselves. This assertion is what Google denied, and still denies. There's been a bit of a wandering definition for PRISM, from "they have NSA software with root access to all machines!" to "they receive LEO requests for information, which they review, and sometimes fulfill." The former is untrue, and the latter is true.
        ChrisAntaki 12y ago
yutah 12y ago
Google would not give up the ability to see email content... maybe they would analyze them locally on your phone instead of on a remote server (that might even save them from buying a few server too)
- magicalist 12y ago
  This is part of End-To-End[1]. There's no way for their code to see the email contents, even locally in the browser. That's the whole point, in fact. [1] https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/ https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/
  - sp332 12y ago
    But isn't keyword-based advertising their only revenue source from non-"Apps for Business" accounts?
  - yutah 12y ago
    If you can see your emails on your Android device and Google is admin on your device, why do you say that it is impossible for them to read your emails? I don't mean that they could read them in the cloud but if they can read them locally on your Android device and for example they could send a message back to Google saying "I think this guy should get ads for a new router".... but of course they could do much worst (they could send whole messages back for example).
    - 8475693 12y ago
      End-to-end is a browser extension that doesn't work on Android.
      - yutah 12y ago
        that is probably because end-to-end is not fully implemented yet...
    - blueking 12y ago
      Android was designed to leak as much information about the user as possible all the time, even to third parties. Spy satellites have less invasive software.