4 ms·

This would be less an issue if airlines were less greedy, trying to cram everyone like a sardine.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
tensor 12y ago
Ironically, it would seem that it would also be less of an issue if passengers like the article writer were less greedy.
elmuchoprez 12y ago
This is purely anecdotal as I don't have real numbers to back it up, but it seems to me like every airline has been on the edge of going out of business for as long as I can remember. I don't think it's greed so much as there is virtually no margin in airlines to begin with.
- mindslight 12y ago
  http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines Makes sense to me, and seems to fit the gamut of airlines. The theory also explains why airlines have hostile customer service - there's just no upside to management working to improve things.
- tzs 12y ago
  There have indeed been a lot of airlines on, or over, the edge. "Over the last 30 years, more than 150 airlines have sought bankruptcy protection or disappeared, but more keep springing up as investors continue to put hope over experience, said Denis O’Connor, managing director with AlixPartners, a restructuring firm." Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/business/17air.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/business/17air.html?pagewa...
cwyers 12y ago
Alternately, this would be less of an issue if customers were willing to pay more to fly on an airplane, then airlines could make the amount of money with fewer passengers on the plane. As it is, there's fixed costs (crew, the plane, fuel to a certain extent) to flying an airplane somewhere regardless of how many people are on it, and the only way to make money is to charge enough to recover those fixed costs. You can either charge more per passenger or you can fit in more passengers. The cost for an additional few inches of legroom on United is about $40 on a larger plane, about $20 on a commuter plane. I understand that some people can't afford to upgrade, but then packing more passengers in benefits those people, presumably -- they'd rather have the lower fares than the extra legroom.
- ryandrake 12y ago
  If customers were willing to pay more to fly on an airplane, why wouldn't airlines simply raise prices and keep the planes just as packed?
  - cwyers 12y ago
    Because it's a market?
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  I'd love to pay 1.5x the cost of a normal airline ticket if airlines removed half the seats and gave more space, but there are several reasons that they don't/won't do that. First class tickets usually cost 2.5x-3.5x the cost of a coach-class seat, which is pretty hard to justify for any middle-class patron. The massive costs required to enter the market prevent fresh competition and fresh models, and we really need to find a way to fix that.
  - r00fus 12y ago
    Your math doesn't add up 50% markup inverted == 66% of total seats, so only 33% more room. Also the marginal cost of an empty seat goes up 50%.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Airline profit margins are razor-thin. They aren't greedy; rather, passengers are obscenely price-sensitive when it comes to airline tickets, and as a result we get planes packed like sardines.
mseebach 12y ago
Greedy? Do you know what airline tickets cost back before seat space started decreasing? Here's a hint, the airlines leading this trend are known as budget airlines and consumer cost has absolutely plummeted while airline profit margins are razor thin. If you want more space, go pay for it, it's called premium economy or business class. I bet that you get more space in present day discounted business than you did in 1980s economy, for less money.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Ironically, it would seem that it would also be less of an issue if passengers like the article writer were less greedy.

elmuchoprez 12y ago

This is purely anecdotal as I don't have real numbers to back it up, but it seems to me like every airline has been on the edge of going out of business for as long as I can remember. I don't think it's greed so much as there is virtually no margin in airlines to begin with.

mindslight 12y ago
http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines Makes sense to me, and seems to fit the gamut of airlines. The theory also explains why airlines have hostile customer service - there's just no upside to management working to improve things.
tzs 12y ago
There have indeed been a lot of airlines on, or over, the edge. "Over the last 30 years, more than 150 airlines have sought bankruptcy protection or disappeared, but more keep springing up as investors continue to put hope over experience, said Denis O’Connor, managing director with AlixPartners, a restructuring firm." Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/business/17air.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/business/17air.html?pagewa...

cwyers 12y ago

Alternately, this would be less of an issue if customers were willing to pay more to fly on an airplane, then airlines could make the amount of money with fewer passengers on the plane. As it is, there's fixed costs (crew, the plane, fuel to a certain extent) to flying an airplane somewhere regardless of how many people are on it, and the only way to make money is to charge enough to recover those fixed costs. You can either charge more per passenger or you can fit in more passengers. The cost for an additional few inches of legroom on United is about $40 on a larger plane, about $20 on a commuter plane. I understand that some people can't afford to upgrade, but then packing more passengers in benefits those people, presumably -- they'd rather have the lower fares than the extra legroom.

ryandrake 12y ago
If customers were willing to pay more to fly on an airplane, why wouldn't airlines simply raise prices and keep the planes just as packed?
- cwyers 12y ago
  Because it's a market?
cookiecaper 12y ago
I'd love to pay 1.5x the cost of a normal airline ticket if airlines removed half the seats and gave more space, but there are several reasons that they don't/won't do that. First class tickets usually cost 2.5x-3.5x the cost of a coach-class seat, which is pretty hard to justify for any middle-class patron. The massive costs required to enter the market prevent fresh competition and fresh models, and we really need to find a way to fix that.
- r00fus 12y ago
  Your math doesn't add up 50% markup inverted == 66% of total seats, so only 33% more room. Also the marginal cost of an empty seat goes up 50%.

sliverstorm 12y ago

Airline profit margins are razor-thin. They aren't greedy; rather, passengers are obscenely price-sensitive when it comes to airline tickets, and as a result we get planes packed like sardines.

mseebach 12y ago

Greedy? Do you know what airline tickets cost back before seat space started decreasing? Here's a hint, the airlines leading this trend are known as budget airlines and consumer cost has absolutely plummeted while airline profit margins are razor thin. If you want more space, go pay for it, it's called premium economy or business class. I bet that you get more space in present day discounted business than you did in 1980s economy, for less money.