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> probably purposefully ignoring Thank you for the accusation of intellectual dishonesty, but you are wrong about this. My process was: Google for articles ab

> probably purposefully ignoring Thank you for the accusation of intellectual dishonesty, but you are wrong about this. My process was: Google for articles about taxi regulation, and see what percentage of them make the argument that regulation protects the underprivileged. In my sample of 3 or 4, the answer was 0%, which seemed a clear argument against the sweeping claim that protecting the poor is "the entire point of taxi regulation in the first place" (note: not taxis, taxi regulation). Furthermore, your links (or the few that I had time to investigate) do not support the central thesis that taxi regulation specifically protects the poor and underprivileged. In fact, many of them are specifically contrary to your shallow analysis. > Seniors, housewives, the disabled, and the poor each account for a much higher share of taxi trips than their share of the population (Rosenbloom 1985; Weiner 1982). This says nothing about taxi regulation benefiting the poor. And in fact much of this paper is criticizing regulation; it even cites evidence arguing that regulation hurts the poor (emphasis mine): > Others (such as Eckert 1970, Beesley and Glaister 1983, and Frankena and Pautler 1986 advocate removing entry restrictions and eliminating monopoly rents. Beesley and Glaister (1983, 611) estimated that entry and price restrictions lead to nearly $10 million per year in welfare losses in the city of London alone. Embedded in those welfare measures are the poor without cars, the elderly, the disabled, and others who now and then need affordable door-to-door transportation services and would benefit from a more competitive market. They are on the wrong side of the political calculus, with their dispersed costs overlooked in a regulatory process dominated by the concentrated benefiaries (Taylor 1989). > Factors Affecting the Use of Taxicaps by Lower Income Groups The abstract of this paper specifically argues that the poor would benefit from reduced market entry restrictions! "Increased availability of taxi service by reduced market entry restrictions and reduced cost of taxi service by permitting group riding and providing subsidies would increase the mobility of the poor." I have to run and don't have time to see if any of your other evidence is any better. But maybe you can narrow it down to a more compelling list. To prove your point, you can't just show that taxis are good for the poor, you have to show that taxi regulation is good.

mikeyouse 12y ago
I apologize, I didn't mean to imply dishonesty, but my initial Google search showed very different results than yours and the tone of your last paragraph didn't exactly confer respect. I actually do largely agree that most taxi regulations only serve to increase costs to consumers without much benefit but that's not really the end of the story. You really need to define 'taxi regulation' in order to have a productive conversation. Handicap-accessible vans are much more expensive than the typical Prius. The handicapped market is small enough that no Homo Economicus would buy a van to serve the handicapped population without a subsidy or mandate. It's a big enough problem that just about every jurisdiction on earth has defined the issue and worked on their own solutions (UK for example: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104171434/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/consulttaxis/consulttaxitaggedpdf.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104171434/htt... or Houston: http://www.houstontx.gov/ara/regaffairs/Houston_Taxi_Study_Results_20140120.pdf http://www.houstontx.gov/ara/regaffairs/Houston_Taxi_Study_R...). No matter what some people would have you believe, regulations aren't just enacted to entrench power. They're almost always in response to some continuing problem. There's probably a way forward that largely deregulates the existing taxi industry, but acknowledging the reasons for the existing regulations will greatly limit the 'unforeseen' side effects.
- haberman 12y ago
  I probably should also apologize for getting as snippy with you as you picked up on. I'm a bit sensitive to these sorts of arguments, and not because I'm deaf to arguments about social justice -- actually the opposite. Most of us on this website were born into incredible privilege that we did nothing to earn. We grew up able to focus on our studies without being distracted by instability in our homes or violence in our communities. We didn't struggle to feed ourselves. Some kids that grow up in poverty acquire mental habits and social patterns that they will never be able to shake completely that identify them as poor and limit their mobility no matter how hard they try (or anyone else tries to help). This is heavy stuff that all of us who are privileged have to live with. The world is deeply unfair and we're the beneficiaries of it. Nothing we can do can undo all the unfairness. All the money in the world can't buy a magic wand that will turn Africa into Europe. The best we can do is try to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, as much as we reasonably can. It's because this injustice is so real that I get so cranky when the social justice card is, in my view, played without sufficient foundation. A human's most natural state is to value themselves and the people close to them more highly than everyone else. When you make a social justice argument, the only people who will be impacted by it are the people who have accepted the idea that they have a moral obligation to care more about justice than their own personal well-being. So you are, in essence, cashing in on the blank check they have written to the world promising to value the welfare of other people more highly than their own wants and needs. This might sound a bit melodramatic for a discussion about a ride-sharing service. But people who like Uber and Lyft really like it. If you confront them and say "your joy dance is deaf to the poor and sick that you're trampling under the soles of your shoes," that is a very serious charge. So if I see someone say that "the entire point of taxi regulation" is to protect the poor, handicapped, etc. and then I find that the first several articles I find concerning taxi regulation have nothing to do with this (and in fact, some authors argue the opposite, that reduced regulation would benefit the poor), I get a little cranky. Because it, in my view, overstates the connection between this issue and the very real injustices of the world, and makes an unwarranted claim on the moral obligation of people who have decided to value justice above themselves. > No matter what some people would have you believe, regulations aren't just enacted to entrench power. I would never argue that they are. Few things in life are just one thing. And I wouldn't argue that 100% of taxi regulations are automatically bad. Some are probably worth keeping. The handicapped-accessible issue is likely one of them. (I don't know much about the specifics of that regulation, but it certainly doesn't seem to apply to 100% of taxis since I see plenty of Crown Victoria or Prius taxis that are just like what you'd get from UberX.) But some regulations are clearly obsoleted by the innovations of Uber/Lyft. And I am really opposed to a reactionary stance that says we have to protect the existing taxi industry against Uber/Lyft or the poor and sick will suffer (the implicit assumption being that taxis serve the poor and sick in a way that Uber/Lyft never can).

mikeyouse 12y ago

I apologize, I didn't mean to imply dishonesty, but my initial Google search showed very different results than yours and the tone of your last paragraph didn't exactly confer respect. I actually do largely agree that most taxi regulations only serve to increase costs to consumers without much benefit but that's not really the end of the story. You really need to define 'taxi regulation' in order to have a productive conversation. Handicap-accessible vans are much more expensive than the typical Prius. The handicapped market is small enough that no Homo Economicus would buy a van to serve the handicapped population without a subsidy or mandate. It's a big enough problem that just about every jurisdiction on earth has defined the issue and worked on their own solutions (UK for example: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104171434/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/consulttaxis/consulttaxitaggedpdf.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100104171434/htt... or Houston: http://www.houstontx.gov/ara/regaffairs/Houston_Taxi_Study_Results_20140120.pdf http://www.houstontx.gov/ara/regaffairs/Houston_Taxi_Study_R...). No matter what some people would have you believe, regulations aren't just enacted to entrench power. They're almost always in response to some continuing problem. There's probably a way forward that largely deregulates the existing taxi industry, but acknowledging the reasons for the existing regulations will greatly limit the 'unforeseen' side effects.

haberman 12y ago
I probably should also apologize for getting as snippy with you as you picked up on. I'm a bit sensitive to these sorts of arguments, and not because I'm deaf to arguments about social justice -- actually the opposite. Most of us on this website were born into incredible privilege that we did nothing to earn. We grew up able to focus on our studies without being distracted by instability in our homes or violence in our communities. We didn't struggle to feed ourselves. Some kids that grow up in poverty acquire mental habits and social patterns that they will never be able to shake completely that identify them as poor and limit their mobility no matter how hard they try (or anyone else tries to help). This is heavy stuff that all of us who are privileged have to live with. The world is deeply unfair and we're the beneficiaries of it. Nothing we can do can undo all the unfairness. All the money in the world can't buy a magic wand that will turn Africa into Europe. The best we can do is try to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, as much as we reasonably can. It's because this injustice is so real that I get so cranky when the social justice card is, in my view, played without sufficient foundation. A human's most natural state is to value themselves and the people close to them more highly than everyone else. When you make a social justice argument, the only people who will be impacted by it are the people who have accepted the idea that they have a moral obligation to care more about justice than their own personal well-being. So you are, in essence, cashing in on the blank check they have written to the world promising to value the welfare of other people more highly than their own wants and needs. This might sound a bit melodramatic for a discussion about a ride-sharing service. But people who like Uber and Lyft really like it. If you confront them and say "your joy dance is deaf to the poor and sick that you're trampling under the soles of your shoes," that is a very serious charge. So if I see someone say that "the entire point of taxi regulation" is to protect the poor, handicapped, etc. and then I find that the first several articles I find concerning taxi regulation have nothing to do with this (and in fact, some authors argue the opposite, that reduced regulation would benefit the poor), I get a little cranky. Because it, in my view, overstates the connection between this issue and the very real injustices of the world, and makes an unwarranted claim on the moral obligation of people who have decided to value justice above themselves. > No matter what some people would have you believe, regulations aren't just enacted to entrench power. I would never argue that they are. Few things in life are just one thing. And I wouldn't argue that 100% of taxi regulations are automatically bad. Some are probably worth keeping. The handicapped-accessible issue is likely one of them. (I don't know much about the specifics of that regulation, but it certainly doesn't seem to apply to 100% of taxis since I see plenty of Crown Victoria or Prius taxis that are just like what you'd get from UberX.) But some regulations are clearly obsoleted by the innovations of Uber/Lyft. And I am really opposed to a reactionary stance that says we have to protect the existing taxi industry against Uber/Lyft or the poor and sick will suffer (the implicit assumption being that taxis serve the poor and sick in a way that Uber/Lyft never can).