4 ms·

Being one of them, I believe I have enough anecdotes that I can call them data.

by hcho 12y ago

kohanz 12y ago
And you have enough data, from your personal experience, to know that these negotiation tactics are strongly correlated with ethnicity/race and not something else? This is exactly what discrimination is and how stereotypes form.
- hcho 12y ago
  Cultures as I stated in my initial post. British publicans get baffled when you tip them, Arabic businessmen bring costs to negotiations, Americans are good at service...All cultural.
- joeclark77 12y ago
  "Discrimination" means the use of the brain to tell one thing from another. There is nothing morally wrong with using this power. I think hcho is plainly trying to offer the benefit of his knowledge here. The morally problematic "discrimination" is that which systematically give different treatment in such a way that innocent people are being shut out of opportunities. It is not wrong to say that Culture X is like Y, what's wrong is to then say you'll automatically disqualify individuals of Culture X for opportunity Z (C?) EDIT: By the way, it's pretty interesting that your comment seems to justify differential treatment if based on that particularly modern folly called "statistical correlation". Are you saying that discriminating against Arabs or women, for example, is only wrong because the stereotypes are false? For that statement is absurd. There are stereotypes because certain things are true, on average, about those groups. Averages are not individual people. Prejudice is a moral problem, not a statistical error.
  - kohanz 12y ago
    I don't think that "being one" (and don't get me started on how someone can consider themselves as part of a group labeled as "Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures") gives someone enough information to make sweeping statements about whole groups of people. Even if you're right 60% of the time (good enough for your typical stereotype), you're wrong 40% of the time and that's important. Does me being a male give me enough data points to make generalizations about men? I'm married and I know quite a few women, should I offer my viewpoints on them as useful information? Anyway, it's all probably a moot point. As I understand, the OP mentioned that the negotiators were discussing the costs of the female applicant (e.g. student loans, etc.) while I think hcho was describing the negotiator describing their own costs (e.g. I can't pay you more because my costs are too high).
    - joeclark77 12y ago
      > Even if you're right 60% of the time (good enough for your typical stereotype), you're wrong 40% of the time and that's important. This disagrees with your previous comment, where you suggested that stereotyping would be okay if there was a statistical correlation.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]

Being one of them, I believe I have enough anecdotes that I can call them data.

by hcho 12y ago

Being one of them, I believe I have enough anecdotes that I can call them data.

And you have enough data, from your personal experience, to know that these negotiation tactics are strongly correlated with ethnicity/race and not something else? This is exactly what discrimination is and how stereotypes form.

hcho 12y ago
Cultures as I stated in my initial post. British publicans get baffled when you tip them, Arabic businessmen bring costs to negotiations, Americans are good at service...All cultural.
joeclark77 12y ago
"Discrimination" means the use of the brain to tell one thing from another. There is nothing morally wrong with using this power. I think hcho is plainly trying to offer the benefit of his knowledge here. The morally problematic "discrimination" is that which systematically give different treatment in such a way that innocent people are being shut out of opportunities. It is not wrong to say that Culture X is like Y, what's wrong is to then say you'll automatically disqualify individuals of Culture X for opportunity Z (C?) EDIT: By the way, it's pretty interesting that your comment seems to justify differential treatment if based on that particularly modern folly called "statistical correlation". Are you saying that discriminating against Arabs or women, for example, is only wrong because the stereotypes are false? For that statement is absurd. There are stereotypes because certain things are true, on average, about those groups. Averages are not individual people. Prejudice is a moral problem, not a statistical error.
- kohanz 12y ago
  I don't think that "being one" (and don't get me started on how someone can consider themselves as part of a group labeled as "Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures") gives someone enough information to make sweeping statements about whole groups of people. Even if you're right 60% of the time (good enough for your typical stereotype), you're wrong 40% of the time and that's important. Does me being a male give me enough data points to make generalizations about men? I'm married and I know quite a few women, should I offer my viewpoints on them as useful information? Anyway, it's all probably a moot point. As I understand, the OP mentioned that the negotiators were discussing the costs of the female applicant (e.g. student loans, etc.) while I think hcho was describing the negotiator describing their own costs (e.g. I can't pay you more because my costs are too high).
  - joeclark77 12y ago
    > Even if you're right 60% of the time (good enough for your typical stereotype), you're wrong 40% of the time and that's important. This disagrees with your previous comment, where you suggested that stereotyping would be okay if there was a statistical correlation.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]