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>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festiva

>Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities Right. I mean, a hippy-esque musical festival is going to draw in all sorts of non-violent potheads. How about the south side of Chicago? Do you think Kosmic Care is going to handle gangbangers on meth? Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/attacker-bites-man-on-the-arm-at-lollapalooza/ http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/attacker-bites-man-on... “In describing it to the police later, they said ‘We never see cases like that where the attacker isn’t on PCP, or bath salts, or something like that,” Lenet said. “There’s no way a normal person could have sustained that much punishment, and just walked away.” The problem with the pro-legalization crowd is that we don't have any consistency. Some of us just want pot legalized but most of the movement seems to have this pie-in-the-sky view of legalizing just about everything. I'm afraid that we have two extremists groups: "no drugs" vs "all drugs" and per usual sane moderate voices are drowned out. I just don't believe a "one size fits all" mentality will work here. I just don't think we should legalize drugs that are physically addictive like heroin, PCP, meth, etc.

mpthrapp 12y ago
Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. >just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization. Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.
  - mpthrapp 12y ago
    > Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. Yes it is. It's a GABA antagonist.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#Drugs_that_cause_physical_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#Drugs_that...
  - astrodust 12y ago
    You can die from an alcohol dependency if you're not treated properly when going sober. For about 10% of the population that is pre-disposed to alcoholism it is extremely addictive.
  - girvo 12y ago
    Yes it is, very much so. The withdrawals are one of the few that can straight up kill you.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    As others have pointed out, alcohol very much is physically addictive. As for heroin, the rates of addiction to heroin amongst heroin users is similar to that of alcohol - most heroin users are casual users, just like most users of alcohol. You just don't see the casual heroin users as easily, because they don't exactly advertise what they do. Nor do you see the large proportion of heroin addicts that manage to lead relatively normal lives. It's not like heroin is a good thing, and that heroin addiction is something we should brush under the carpet, but for existing heroin addicts, lack of safe access to consistent doses is a far greater hazard than heroin itself. Meanwhile nicotine on its own is not particularly addictive, nor particularly harmful - it needs to be mixed with other substances to become much of a problem.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Ok naieve non-user here, no idea what heroin use is like except what I see in the media. But it takes some kind of nerves to inject a drug, unlike say drinking from a glass or lighting up. I have to believe heroin is the resort of fairly desperate people. Some emotional or physical compulsion must exist to overcome the natural inclination to not jab yourself with a needle. So I have to believe the risk of heroin use escalating is accelerated by that compulsion. I'd love to see your statistics on the demographics of 'casual heroin users'. And how long they remain that way without some crisis.
mikeash 12y ago
How does making the stuff illegal handle gangbangers on meth, exactly? The anti-legalization crowd seems to hold it as an article of faith that criminalizing drug use results in less drug use. The arguments always come down to some variation on, "Freedom is good, but drugs are bad, so sometimes it's worth making them illegal." I think you need to show that criminalizing physically addictive drugs like heroin, PCP, meth, etc. actually reduces their use. The evidence available so far from places like Portugal seems to indicate the opposite, although the data is far from clear. I mean, your PCP example is from a place where all of this stuff is already highly illegal. How is that not an argument against criminalization?
- mpthrapp 12y ago
  C'mon, don't know you know that making something illegal automatically makes everyone in the world stop doing it? /s No, but seriously - and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir - we desperately need reforms in both the Mental Health and Drug sectors in the US. Vermont's initiative seems to be a step in the right direction. It reminds me a bit of the Canadian Insite[1], which is a place where addicts can go to be in a sterile environment and be under medical supervision while they use. [1]http://supervisedinjection.vch.ca/ http://supervisedinjection.vch.ca/
true_religion 12y ago
> Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs: If you attack people, it doesn't matter how drug friendly your country is... you'll still be arrested just the same as if you attacked someone while sober.
- mpthrapp 12y ago
  Yup. Just because a substance is legal, doesn't mean using it absolves you of responsibility for your actions while using it. Look at alcohol.
  - Noted 12y ago
    I think the point was the few lines after that about the punishment the attacker withstood, presumably due to the drugs. Subduing someone on PCP can be much more difficult than someone who is drunk or high from other substances
kaitai 12y ago
Decriminalization would have a disproportionately good impact on the south side of Chicago. Remember, black kids are less likely to use drugs than white kids, but then have roughly equal arrest rates (not per drug use, per person) and then ridiculously disproportionate incarceration rates. Some interesting books on the topic include "High Price" by neuroscientist Carl Hart, which I enjoyed because it touched personally on the gangbanging aspect, and "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander, which instead takes a structural/legal point of view. "High Price" also discusses our psychological reactions to drugs like nicotine, marijuana, and LSD -- the author talks about interactions between environment, personal psychology, and chemical and how different behaviors can result. You can explore drug use rates at http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-0001_all http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-... and notice that for a few drugs use is similar across black/white racial lines (crack, heroin) and for most other drugs skews very white. Look at cocaine, for instance.

mpthrapp 12y ago

Yeah, why would we ever legalize physically addictive drugs like cigarettes or alcohol? Oh wait. I'm not saying anything about the legalization of Heroin, just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
I'm all for making nicotine illegal. Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. >just that the potential for physical addiction maybe isn't the best marker for legalization. Probably better than the current standards. I'd love to live somewhere where cigarettes were illegal and pot wasn't.
- mpthrapp 12y ago
  > Alcohol isn't physically addictive like heroin. Yes it is. It's a GABA antagonist.[1] [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#Drugs_that_cause_physical_dependence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#Drugs_that...
- astrodust 12y ago
  You can die from an alcohol dependency if you're not treated properly when going sober. For about 10% of the population that is pre-disposed to alcoholism it is extremely addictive.
- girvo 12y ago
  Yes it is, very much so. The withdrawals are one of the few that can straight up kill you.
- vidarh 12y ago
  As others have pointed out, alcohol very much is physically addictive. As for heroin, the rates of addiction to heroin amongst heroin users is similar to that of alcohol - most heroin users are casual users, just like most users of alcohol. You just don't see the casual heroin users as easily, because they don't exactly advertise what they do. Nor do you see the large proportion of heroin addicts that manage to lead relatively normal lives. It's not like heroin is a good thing, and that heroin addiction is something we should brush under the carpet, but for existing heroin addicts, lack of safe access to consistent doses is a far greater hazard than heroin itself. Meanwhile nicotine on its own is not particularly addictive, nor particularly harmful - it needs to be mixed with other substances to become much of a problem.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Ok naieve non-user here, no idea what heroin use is like except what I see in the media. But it takes some kind of nerves to inject a drug, unlike say drinking from a glass or lighting up. I have to believe heroin is the resort of fairly desperate people. Some emotional or physical compulsion must exist to overcome the natural inclination to not jab yourself with a needle. So I have to believe the risk of heroin use escalating is accelerated by that compulsion. I'd love to see your statistics on the demographics of 'casual heroin users'. And how long they remain that way without some crisis.

mikeash 12y ago

How does making the stuff illegal handle gangbangers on meth, exactly? The anti-legalization crowd seems to hold it as an article of faith that criminalizing drug use results in less drug use. The arguments always come down to some variation on, "Freedom is good, but drugs are bad, so sometimes it's worth making them illegal." I think you need to show that criminalizing physically addictive drugs like heroin, PCP, meth, etc. actually reduces their use. The evidence available so far from places like Portugal seems to indicate the opposite, although the data is far from clear. I mean, your PCP example is from a place where all of this stuff is already highly illegal. How is that not an argument against criminalization?

mpthrapp 12y ago
C'mon, don't know you know that making something illegal automatically makes everyone in the world stop doing it? /s No, but seriously - and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir - we desperately need reforms in both the Mental Health and Drug sectors in the US. Vermont's initiative seems to be a step in the right direction. It reminds me a bit of the Canadian Insite[1], which is a place where addicts can go to be in a sterile environment and be under medical supervision while they use. [1]http://supervisedinjection.vch.ca/ http://supervisedinjection.vch.ca/

true_religion 12y ago

> Heck, here in Chicago during Lollapalooza, a man bit two people and injured them. It is reported that he was on drugs: If you attack people, it doesn't matter how drug friendly your country is... you'll still be arrested just the same as if you attacked someone while sober.

mpthrapp 12y ago
Yup. Just because a substance is legal, doesn't mean using it absolves you of responsibility for your actions while using it. Look at alcohol.
- Noted 12y ago
  I think the point was the few lines after that about the punishment the attacker withstood, presumably due to the drugs. Subduing someone on PCP can be much more difficult than someone who is drunk or high from other substances

kaitai 12y ago

Decriminalization would have a disproportionately good impact on the south side of Chicago. Remember, black kids are less likely to use drugs than white kids, but then have roughly equal arrest rates (not per drug use, per person) and then ridiculously disproportionate incarceration rates. Some interesting books on the topic include "High Price" by neuroscientist Carl Hart, which I enjoyed because it touched personally on the gangbanging aspect, and "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexander, which instead takes a structural/legal point of view. "High Price" also discusses our psychological reactions to drugs like nicotine, marijuana, and LSD -- the author talks about interactions between environment, personal psychology, and chemical and how different behaviors can result. You can explore drug use rates at http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-0001_all http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-... and notice that for a few drugs use is similar across black/white racial lines (crack, heroin) and for most other drugs skews very white. Look at cocaine, for instance.