5 ms·

I'll risk more downvotes, I guess, what the heck. Here are the main differences I see: the power dynamic at play, the scale of the effort, and the availability

I'll risk more downvotes, I guess, what the heck. Here are the main differences I see: the power dynamic at play, the scale of the effort, and the availability of concrete proof of action. The Hollywood Blacklist was an attempt by studios and directors and some in the US government (those in power) to ban those underneath them based on, largely, unfounded allegations of Communist sympathies. It also had anti-union motivations, but I might be wrong? It took down dozens of actors, directors, and producers. No concrete "anti-American" actions were proven (that I know of). Brendan Eich stepped down after his customers (and some of his employees) found proof that he'd donated to a cause supporting Prop 8, a piece of legislation that would have removed previously granted rights to homosexuals trying to marry. The donation was a specific action that Eich took that his customers disagreed with. I think the power dynamic is the telling one. Oligarchic vs. grassroots, etc.

tbrownaw 12y ago
And yet both are meant to stifle/punish dissenting political opinions. Are the only differences really who is doing the stifling and how flimsy their evidence is?
- dasil003 12y ago
  Obviously not. The political opinions are objectively different even outside the bubble of current political correctness. One is about the form of government and the other is about human rights.
  - tbrownaw 12y ago
    Having the government dictate where you live and work and what you can buy is very much a matter of human rights. And, it's more so than bikeshedding over what terminology the government should use to talk about inheritance and visitation rights. (Also, isn't having an elected government being viewed more and more as basic human rights these days?)
    - dasil003 12y ago
      I can't tell if you're trolling. Did you really just say that gay marriage rights are about bikeshedding?
      - tbrownaw 12y ago
        From what I understand, a significant part of the fight (in general, not just California) has been about wanting to legally use the word "marriage", with all the social/religious connotations it's picked up over the years, rather than about just getting equal legal rights thru the law and then sorting out social perception thru social means. This also comes at the expense of other non-traditional relationships, by making the argument about making a narrow change to what's called "marriage" rather than about handling the associated legal rights more flexibly. So yes, bikeshedding.
        dasil003 12y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring the material grievances that they suffer by focusing on one aspect of the debate and pretending it's the whole thing. The fact is that gay people's life partners can not be granted power of attorney or numerous other marriage benefits is huge glaring inequity in our legal system. Also, your original argument that a debate about Communism is also about human rights is applicable to any political debate, because of course politics is all about deciding things that affect people. If you can't understand the difference between a class of people being denied common rights, and standard political debate about rules that ostensibly apply to everyone then I have no additional argument to try to help you see the light.
        WeaselHunter 12y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring California law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Califor... See under "Scope". By 2008 as amended, California afforded domestic partnerships the same rights and responsibilities as marriages under state law. Federal law was of course different due to DOMA, which was overturned in 2013. Prop 8 did not remove any legal privileges available under CA Domestic Partner law. It did not revoke any marriage licenses, either. As for denying "common rights", you are begging the question. What common public good (not "right") is secured by marriage, defined based on that public good, that the state should regulate it in the first place? Traditionally (in the US), legally regulated marriage had to do with family law, children, rearing as well as getting of children, forming legally recognized kinship based on procreation and adoption. Along the way, baggage including visitation rights at hospitals and jails was thrown on board, but such regulations are not essential. If people can't agree on the common good of marriage, then marriage should not be legally regulated at all. It's stupefyingly clear from this case that people do not even use the same definitions for words including "marriage" and "rights". That this is true does not make anyone on any particular side of the multi-sided debate an outlaw for dissenting from whatever might be the dominant position, in 2008 or now. Anyway, ignore the lack of consensus on a common good. You didn't even bother to be accurate about relevant California law. You just made up stuff about "material grievances" and "common rights" to try to dodge debate and cast others as beyond the pale.
- drhayes9 12y ago
  Yes, but don't minimize it. Metaphorically, it's the difference between a guy with a big stick who makes stuff up so he can beat your face and a crowd of people voting on what court system to set up to give you a trial.
dba7dba 12y ago
The twist to the story is Prop 8 was voted into law by majority (slim for sure) of the state. Not saying I agree with or not (haha censoring myself there again), but he basically took a stand on a piece of law that was being debated. So I can't even compare this with the witch hunt against alleged communists in Hollywood in 50s. Afaik, he did not force others under him to agree. Nor force the idea onto Firefox. It was guilty by association.

tbrownaw 12y ago

And yet both are meant to stifle/punish dissenting political opinions. Are the only differences really who is doing the stifling and how flimsy their evidence is?

dasil003 12y ago
Obviously not. The political opinions are objectively different even outside the bubble of current political correctness. One is about the form of government and the other is about human rights.
- tbrownaw 12y ago
  Having the government dictate where you live and work and what you can buy is very much a matter of human rights. And, it's more so than bikeshedding over what terminology the government should use to talk about inheritance and visitation rights. (Also, isn't having an elected government being viewed more and more as basic human rights these days?)
  - dasil003 12y ago
    I can't tell if you're trolling. Did you really just say that gay marriage rights are about bikeshedding?
    - tbrownaw 12y ago
      From what I understand, a significant part of the fight (in general, not just California) has been about wanting to legally use the word "marriage", with all the social/religious connotations it's picked up over the years, rather than about just getting equal legal rights thru the law and then sorting out social perception thru social means. This also comes at the expense of other non-traditional relationships, by making the argument about making a narrow change to what's called "marriage" rather than about handling the associated legal rights more flexibly. So yes, bikeshedding.
      - dasil003 12y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring the material grievances that they suffer by focusing on one aspect of the debate and pretending it's the whole thing. The fact is that gay people's life partners can not be granted power of attorney or numerous other marriage benefits is huge glaring inequity in our legal system. Also, your original argument that a debate about Communism is also about human rights is applicable to any political debate, because of course politics is all about deciding things that affect people. If you can't understand the difference between a class of people being denied common rights, and standard political debate about rules that ostensibly apply to everyone then I have no additional argument to try to help you see the light.
        WeaselHunter 12y ago
        You are conveniently ignoring California law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Califor... See under "Scope". By 2008 as amended, California afforded domestic partnerships the same rights and responsibilities as marriages under state law. Federal law was of course different due to DOMA, which was overturned in 2013. Prop 8 did not remove any legal privileges available under CA Domestic Partner law. It did not revoke any marriage licenses, either. As for denying "common rights", you are begging the question. What common public good (not "right") is secured by marriage, defined based on that public good, that the state should regulate it in the first place? Traditionally (in the US), legally regulated marriage had to do with family law, children, rearing as well as getting of children, forming legally recognized kinship based on procreation and adoption. Along the way, baggage including visitation rights at hospitals and jails was thrown on board, but such regulations are not essential. If people can't agree on the common good of marriage, then marriage should not be legally regulated at all. It's stupefyingly clear from this case that people do not even use the same definitions for words including "marriage" and "rights". That this is true does not make anyone on any particular side of the multi-sided debate an outlaw for dissenting from whatever might be the dominant position, in 2008 or now. Anyway, ignore the lack of consensus on a common good. You didn't even bother to be accurate about relevant California law. You just made up stuff about "material grievances" and "common rights" to try to dodge debate and cast others as beyond the pale.
drhayes9 12y ago
Yes, but don't minimize it. Metaphorically, it's the difference between a guy with a big stick who makes stuff up so he can beat your face and a crowd of people voting on what court system to set up to give you a trial.

dba7dba 12y ago

The twist to the story is Prop 8 was voted into law by majority (slim for sure) of the state. Not saying I agree with or not (haha censoring myself there again), but he basically took a stand on a piece of law that was being debated. So I can't even compare this with the witch hunt against alleged communists in Hollywood in 50s. Afaik, he did not force others under him to agree. Nor force the idea onto Firefox. It was guilty by association.