5 ms·

Ask HN: My company is participating in discriminatory pay practices

34 points by codergal 12y ago

A couple coworkers have mentioned recently that they found out they weren't making as much as equally or less qualified men at our start-up (to the tune of 15-25k differences), and someone in HR just tipped me off that this has been happening across the board (and includes my own salary). It's a mid-size YC company that I won't name here of course....obviously I'm planning on leaving, but what's the correct course of action here? Is this something that's wise to report? addendum: in one of the cases, the man's initial offer was 15k more (even though he didn't do as well in interviews) and we wouldn't respond to the woman's attempts to negotiate (and apparently started asking about her personal finances). I don't think negotiation is a huge factor here, though I know that's a common cause.

kirinan 12y ago
How certain are you this happening? Have you talked to the cofounders? I'm not suggesting its not happening, and its certainly a lawsuit if it is the case but be damn sure that they are doing it before you take any legal action/go open with it. It would destroy you along with them if you take it to the public and you are wrong. If you can without a reasonable doubt say that they are, and have evidence that isn't based on negotiations or bonuses, then by all means sue them in court: you are owed money. This is a really hard case to prove though because the burden of proof is on your and thus you must be able to prove via emails from the founders/HR or recorded chats (concrete admissible evidence) of them saying to discriminate against people or its just slander. If you slander or libel them without proof, you will get sued and you will lose. It will also damage your reputation and future career prospects. Just because your salaries are lower doesn't mean there is discrimination; the other people could have negotiated better or negotiated at all. There can be other more innocent things as well such as buddies of the founders getting paid more not because they are men but because they are friends. There are a lot of scenarios at play here, and if they are discriminatory I hope you the best to win the case. Nobody deserves to be discriminated against.
- codergal 12y ago
  That's the trickiest part of this -- I don't have direct access to payroll / hard evidence. It doesn't look like a negotiation gap, unfortunately -- it looks like it's more on the company's end. I have enough equity that I want the company to succeed -- I also know we're losing top women because of it.
  - kirinan 12y ago
    I think ultimately than it would be best to move on, tell the cofounders what you suspect is happening and let them know they are losing top talent because of it. Its really unfortunate that you have to do that in 2014, but it might be the first time that you encounter illegal things being done to the detriment of employees or customers but it won't be the last. The best thing to do for you is to leave, and not worry about. The last you want is for them to tell their network that you are slandering them or you are a "bad employee". Its unfortunate that they are probably the kind of people that would also try to ruin your career. It sucks, but there isn't much you can do/should do without hard evidence.
- neilk 12y ago
  > There can be other more innocent things as well such as buddies of the founders getting paid more not because they are men but because they are friends. That is far from innocent.
  - kirinan 12y ago
    Oh its more innocent than discrimination. Is it stupid business practices? Sure. Is it illegal? Its not. Im not suggesting people should do it, you should pay an employee what they are worth the business, but ultimately things that are legal and stupid business decisions are more innocent than blatant discrimination.
aepearson 12y ago
If you're quitting - I don't really see the point of reporting anything. I would however, make sure that your current co-workers that are being discriminated against know it's happening (if it's happening). You may consider the fact that there may not be any discrimination going on at all...can you prove that some employees are making less than their male counterparts based solely on sex and not actual merit, contract negotiation, or earned bonuses? (I know I have been in more than one situation where I was making more not because I'm male - but simply because I asked for more)
- schmidtc 12y ago
  Looking the other way is exactly what perpetuates this kind of behavior. Everyone wants to assume there is something else going on when it comes to discrimination. If that's the case the people in charge should have no problem explaining why they are paying men more than women.
  - aepearson 12y ago
    I'm not suggesting she look the other way, by any means. Looking at is as a "guilty until proven innocent" situation is, in my opinion, not the way to go. Making discrimination accusations is serious business...you better be DAMN sure that you can back up your claim. Also, if she's quitting - the people who are staying should be the ones to make the complaint...you know, the ones who are actually affected by the "discrimination".
hcho 12y ago
Is the person you are trying to negotiate with non-western by any chance? Bringing in the costs to the discussion is quite a common negotiation tactic for some cultures. I've seen Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures doing that.
- kohanz 12y ago
  You do realize that this thread is about discrimination, right?
  - hcho 12y ago
    I am from a Middle Eastern country originally and was trying to help out by making sure that things are not getting lost in translation.
    - kohanz 12y ago
      You're missing my point. You are using your personal experience to paint huge populations of people ("Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures") with a very broad (and probably inaccurate) brush. It's speculative at best, offensive stereotyping at worst.
      - hcho 12y ago
        Being one of them, I believe I have enough anecdotes that I can call them data.
        kohanz 12y ago
        And you have enough data, from your personal experience, to know that these negotiation tactics are strongly correlated with ethnicity/race and not something else? This is exactly what discrimination is and how stereotypes form.
        hcho 12y ago
sama 12y ago
please reach out to me--sam@ycombinator
- fizzyfizz 12y ago
  Hey, Sam, from your blog posts I have the impression you take this issue seriously. Please take this as a friendly suggestion. Anyway, if I were the OP I'd be worried that YC might be more concerned with PR damage control than justice for a handful of low-level employees. For some companies, that has meant discrediting the complainant and building a paper trail against them. (EDIT: I'm not referring to any YC company, just companies in general.) Are there any guarantees you can offer for whistleblowers?
  - sama 12y ago
    obviously we'll keep their identity confidential. if we were concerned about PR damage, we'd handle this a very different way. just want to help if possible. you should see some of the flames we send our portfolio companies when they do something wrong :)
joeclark77 12y ago
What are they "discriminating" on? If it's not race, sex, or some other protected category, then what's the problem? The salaries may be based on something that you just don't feel is important, but the hiring managers do. Or the offers might have been based on what the hires were earning elsewhere or what competitive offers they had. EDIT: OK, I now see you're alleging sex discrimination. Would've been easier if you'd just said that directly. So, the question is, what makes you so sure? If you think your work is worth just as much as your co-worker, why not ask for a raise?
alain94040 12y ago
To make sure, you'd need to find out the previous salaries as well as the current salaries. Maybe the disparity was already present in the salaries from previous jobs. The problem with startups is that the sample rate is too low to draw statistically significant conclusions. For larger companies, it's easier to detect trends of discrimination. That being said, if it was me, and if you had already decided to quit, I would first send a formal email to all the founders, co-founders, HR and hiring managers, explaining your suspicion as politely and fairly as possible, and asking for an explanation. It still won't end well (which is ok, you are quitting anyway), but at least you give the other side a chance to either explain or rectify the situation.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  "Previous job salary" has (or should have) little to no bearing on "current job salary" regardless of gender. In fact, there is only a relationship as long as a candidate employee allows it. It is not at all the business of a potential new employer what their potential new employees' current salaries are. The only reason for an employer to ask for such information is to reduce the compensation offer for a new employee.
  - joeclark77 12y ago
    Just because you don't think it should matter, doesn't mean nobody else thinks it matters. At the very least, it matters when trying to recruit somebody away from an existing job, doesn't it? If you want to hire someone, and he's getting X salary, you're generally going to have to offer more than X.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      Yes, I understand that others think it matters; I never implied otherwise. Aside from that, it matters not one bit what "X" is, except in the circumstance where an employer wishes to gauge whether he can offer less than he's prepared to.
      - 12y ago
dragonwriter 12y ago
Yes, this is the kind of thing that it is highly appropriate to report; on of the biggest difficulties in enforcing anti-discrimination laws is lots of people see it, by no one wants to be the one to report it.
tptacek 12y ago
You can (and should) complain directly, either to EEOC or, in California, to DFEH --- you can do that online at: http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/ http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/ Is there more than one person concerned about the pay gap? Can you get more than one person to file a complaint?
chrisBob 12y ago
I have worked places with salaries that were public knowledge and non-negotiable, and places where salaries were hidden and varied wildly. My mentor recommends finding out the compensation of those you work with, and use that when you negotiate for a raise. It also sounds like the HR person is the one with the real knowledge here, and they are the one in the best position to report this if they are willing.
Apoorv02 12y ago
Whatever you do just make sure you are not sabotaging something under under false notion. Along with your career there are other stakes but do it if you are completely assured.
RollAHardSix 12y ago
Labor Board. Report it.
ntiku 12y ago
Hey, I'm one of the editors of Valleywag. I had a question about your post, if you have a few minutes: nitasha@gawker.com

34 points by codergal 12y ago

kirinan 12y ago

How certain are you this happening? Have you talked to the cofounders? I'm not suggesting its not happening, and its certainly a lawsuit if it is the case but be damn sure that they are doing it before you take any legal action/go open with it. It would destroy you along with them if you take it to the public and you are wrong. If you can without a reasonable doubt say that they are, and have evidence that isn't based on negotiations or bonuses, then by all means sue them in court: you are owed money. This is a really hard case to prove though because the burden of proof is on your and thus you must be able to prove via emails from the founders/HR or recorded chats (concrete admissible evidence) of them saying to discriminate against people or its just slander. If you slander or libel them without proof, you will get sued and you will lose. It will also damage your reputation and future career prospects. Just because your salaries are lower doesn't mean there is discrimination; the other people could have negotiated better or negotiated at all. There can be other more innocent things as well such as buddies of the founders getting paid more not because they are men but because they are friends. There are a lot of scenarios at play here, and if they are discriminatory I hope you the best to win the case. Nobody deserves to be discriminated against.

codergal 12y ago
That's the trickiest part of this -- I don't have direct access to payroll / hard evidence. It doesn't look like a negotiation gap, unfortunately -- it looks like it's more on the company's end. I have enough equity that I want the company to succeed -- I also know we're losing top women because of it.
- kirinan 12y ago
  I think ultimately than it would be best to move on, tell the cofounders what you suspect is happening and let them know they are losing top talent because of it. Its really unfortunate that you have to do that in 2014, but it might be the first time that you encounter illegal things being done to the detriment of employees or customers but it won't be the last. The best thing to do for you is to leave, and not worry about. The last you want is for them to tell their network that you are slandering them or you are a "bad employee". Its unfortunate that they are probably the kind of people that would also try to ruin your career. It sucks, but there isn't much you can do/should do without hard evidence.
neilk 12y ago
> There can be other more innocent things as well such as buddies of the founders getting paid more not because they are men but because they are friends. That is far from innocent.
- kirinan 12y ago
  Oh its more innocent than discrimination. Is it stupid business practices? Sure. Is it illegal? Its not. Im not suggesting people should do it, you should pay an employee what they are worth the business, but ultimately things that are legal and stupid business decisions are more innocent than blatant discrimination.

aepearson 12y ago

If you're quitting - I don't really see the point of reporting anything. I would however, make sure that your current co-workers that are being discriminated against know it's happening (if it's happening). You may consider the fact that there may not be any discrimination going on at all...can you prove that some employees are making less than their male counterparts based solely on sex and not actual merit, contract negotiation, or earned bonuses? (I know I have been in more than one situation where I was making more not because I'm male - but simply because I asked for more)

schmidtc 12y ago
Looking the other way is exactly what perpetuates this kind of behavior. Everyone wants to assume there is something else going on when it comes to discrimination. If that's the case the people in charge should have no problem explaining why they are paying men more than women.
- aepearson 12y ago
  I'm not suggesting she look the other way, by any means. Looking at is as a "guilty until proven innocent" situation is, in my opinion, not the way to go. Making discrimination accusations is serious business...you better be DAMN sure that you can back up your claim. Also, if she's quitting - the people who are staying should be the ones to make the complaint...you know, the ones who are actually affected by the "discrimination".

hcho 12y ago

Is the person you are trying to negotiate with non-western by any chance? Bringing in the costs to the discussion is quite a common negotiation tactic for some cultures. I've seen Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures doing that.

kohanz 12y ago
You do realize that this thread is about discrimination, right?
- hcho 12y ago
  I am from a Middle Eastern country originally and was trying to help out by making sure that things are not getting lost in translation.
  - kohanz 12y ago
    You're missing my point. You are using your personal experience to paint huge populations of people ("Indians, Arabs and a few other Middle Eastern cultures") with a very broad (and probably inaccurate) brush. It's speculative at best, offensive stereotyping at worst.
    - hcho 12y ago
      Being one of them, I believe I have enough anecdotes that I can call them data.
      - kohanz 12y ago
        And you have enough data, from your personal experience, to know that these negotiation tactics are strongly correlated with ethnicity/race and not something else? This is exactly what discrimination is and how stereotypes form.
        hcho 12y ago

sama 12y ago

please reach out to me--sam@ycombinator

fizzyfizz 12y ago
Hey, Sam, from your blog posts I have the impression you take this issue seriously. Please take this as a friendly suggestion. Anyway, if I were the OP I'd be worried that YC might be more concerned with PR damage control than justice for a handful of low-level employees. For some companies, that has meant discrediting the complainant and building a paper trail against them. (EDIT: I'm not referring to any YC company, just companies in general.) Are there any guarantees you can offer for whistleblowers?
- sama 12y ago
  obviously we'll keep their identity confidential. if we were concerned about PR damage, we'd handle this a very different way. just want to help if possible. you should see some of the flames we send our portfolio companies when they do something wrong :)

joeclark77 12y ago

What are they "discriminating" on? If it's not race, sex, or some other protected category, then what's the problem? The salaries may be based on something that you just don't feel is important, but the hiring managers do. Or the offers might have been based on what the hires were earning elsewhere or what competitive offers they had. EDIT: OK, I now see you're alleging sex discrimination. Would've been easier if you'd just said that directly. So, the question is, what makes you so sure? If you think your work is worth just as much as your co-worker, why not ask for a raise?

alain94040 12y ago

To make sure, you'd need to find out the previous salaries as well as the current salaries. Maybe the disparity was already present in the salaries from previous jobs. The problem with startups is that the sample rate is too low to draw statistically significant conclusions. For larger companies, it's easier to detect trends of discrimination. That being said, if it was me, and if you had already decided to quit, I would first send a formal email to all the founders, co-founders, HR and hiring managers, explaining your suspicion as politely and fairly as possible, and asking for an explanation. It still won't end well (which is ok, you are quitting anyway), but at least you give the other side a chance to either explain or rectify the situation.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
"Previous job salary" has (or should have) little to no bearing on "current job salary" regardless of gender. In fact, there is only a relationship as long as a candidate employee allows it. It is not at all the business of a potential new employer what their potential new employees' current salaries are. The only reason for an employer to ask for such information is to reduce the compensation offer for a new employee.
- joeclark77 12y ago
  Just because you don't think it should matter, doesn't mean nobody else thinks it matters. At the very least, it matters when trying to recruit somebody away from an existing job, doesn't it? If you want to hire someone, and he's getting X salary, you're generally going to have to offer more than X.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    Yes, I understand that others think it matters; I never implied otherwise. Aside from that, it matters not one bit what "X" is, except in the circumstance where an employer wishes to gauge whether he can offer less than he's prepared to.
    - 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

Yes, this is the kind of thing that it is highly appropriate to report; on of the biggest difficulties in enforcing anti-discrimination laws is lots of people see it, by no one wants to be the one to report it.

tptacek 12y ago

You can (and should) complain directly, either to EEOC or, in California, to DFEH --- you can do that online at: http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/ http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/ Is there more than one person concerned about the pay gap? Can you get more than one person to file a complaint?

chrisBob 12y ago

I have worked places with salaries that were public knowledge and non-negotiable, and places where salaries were hidden and varied wildly. My mentor recommends finding out the compensation of those you work with, and use that when you negotiate for a raise. It also sounds like the HR person is the one with the real knowledge here, and they are the one in the best position to report this if they are willing.

Apoorv02 12y ago

Whatever you do just make sure you are not sabotaging something under under false notion. Along with your career there are other stakes but do it if you are completely assured.

RollAHardSix 12y ago

Labor Board. Report it.

ntiku 12y ago

Hey, I'm one of the editors of Valleywag. I had a question about your post, if you have a few minutes: nitasha@gawker.com