6 ms·

Fine, but every developer I know works long hours and is squeezed for productivity. Isn't that just the reality of the field? If the choice is a) drab cage or

Fine, but every developer I know works long hours and is squeezed for productivity. Isn't that just the reality of the field? If the choice is a) drab cage or b) gilded cage, I'll take the one with the subsidized lunch and massage chairs, thanks.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> Isn't that just the reality of the field? Nope. I'm at a SF startup now, and work/life balance is extremely important in company culture. No one is squeezed for productivity.
danielweber 12y ago
You only get forced to work overtime if you can't stand up for yourself. NB: It took me a while to stand up for myself.
Iftheshoefits 12y ago
It's the reality if a person allows it to be. I suppose if one prioritizes his own personal life lower, or identifies himself by his commitments to his professional life or by the company he works for, then the negative connotation of "squeezed" doesn't really apply. The reality, however, for the vast majority of programmers, is that like in every other industry there is a huge imbalance of power and more often than not employers (e.g., Google) are all too happy to exploit that imbalance, along with individual programmers' enthusiasm, to their own benefit. Personal opinion, likely to be unpopular here: one of the reasons wages in our industry aren't higher is because of people who merely accept the "cage" as the status quo--but people who proudly enter the "gilded cage" of certain employers are the worst offenders. One need but look to the video game industry for a prime example of the above mentioned exploitation and depression of wages as an extreme example.
enraged_camel 12y ago
>>Fine, but every developer I know works long hours and is squeezed for productivity. Isn't that just the reality of the field? I don't know any developers who work more than 50 hours a week. Most of them work 40 hours or less, and a lot of them don't even have their work hours tracked.
fsloth 12y ago
> Isn't that just the reality of the field? I'm a developer and I work 37.5 hours a week. Never in my professional life in the past 8 years have I been coerced to overwork (although, due to flexible worktime, I occassionally work on a few days a bit more, and on some, a bit less). I would never describe my work environment as a "cage" of any sort. Please, if you are overworked, do not expect it to be a good thing or an universal rule. Rather, I would suggest you approach it from an engineers perspective - "Ok, this time allocation thing is broken, I cannot seriously work this much, I want to have a life, how can I fix this". This rule is often quite true in the workplace: You get what you are willing to accept. It is surprising how many things you can change (within limits) if you stop accepting things because they are, make up your mind about your limits (within agreed boundaries) and politely but firmly stick to them. Usually, if you explain your point of view politely, calmly and with confidence you can get pretty good results out of negotiations if you set realistic goals. Of course, some people enjoy working long hours but in this case I would not describe their status as 'caged'.
- thothamon 12y ago
  I work at a great company now and the hours are very reasonable. But in the past six years, most of the companies I worked for pressured me in various ways to work (unpaid) overtime. Direct management pressure is only one kind of pressure, and was not the predominant one for me. Was it a cage, gilded or otherwise? It was certainly unfair and unpleasant. At some point in one of the companies I worked for, when the hours became truly insane, I just decided not to do it anymore. I was still working a lot, but just chose not to work 60+ hours a week. I would say this choice led to some discomfort at that company, and I might eventually have been fired if I had not moved on. The point is you can't negotiate your way out of everything. Some places are just bad news, and your best option is to leave, if you can. My experience tells me this is fairly common, especially in a bad economy when employers think you have limited alternatives.
nathan_long 12y ago
Developers are generally paid pretty well. If you're being paid well, you have negotiating power. If someone will pay you (say) $80k to work 40 hours a week, probably someone will pay you $40k to work 20 hours a week, or $75k to work 40 but have more vacation. You just need to make your desires clear during the job search process. There is no reason that someone with high-vlue skills should be overworked and miserable. It's a choice.

toomuchtodo 12y ago

> Isn't that just the reality of the field? Nope. I'm at a SF startup now, and work/life balance is extremely important in company culture. No one is squeezed for productivity.

danielweber 12y ago

You only get forced to work overtime if you can't stand up for yourself. NB: It took me a while to stand up for myself.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago

It's the reality if a person allows it to be. I suppose if one prioritizes his own personal life lower, or identifies himself by his commitments to his professional life or by the company he works for, then the negative connotation of "squeezed" doesn't really apply. The reality, however, for the vast majority of programmers, is that like in every other industry there is a huge imbalance of power and more often than not employers (e.g., Google) are all too happy to exploit that imbalance, along with individual programmers' enthusiasm, to their own benefit. Personal opinion, likely to be unpopular here: one of the reasons wages in our industry aren't higher is because of people who merely accept the "cage" as the status quo--but people who proudly enter the "gilded cage" of certain employers are the worst offenders. One need but look to the video game industry for a prime example of the above mentioned exploitation and depression of wages as an extreme example.

enraged_camel 12y ago

>>Fine, but every developer I know works long hours and is squeezed for productivity. Isn't that just the reality of the field? I don't know any developers who work more than 50 hours a week. Most of them work 40 hours or less, and a lot of them don't even have their work hours tracked.

fsloth 12y ago

> Isn't that just the reality of the field? I'm a developer and I work 37.5 hours a week. Never in my professional life in the past 8 years have I been coerced to overwork (although, due to flexible worktime, I occassionally work on a few days a bit more, and on some, a bit less). I would never describe my work environment as a "cage" of any sort. Please, if you are overworked, do not expect it to be a good thing or an universal rule. Rather, I would suggest you approach it from an engineers perspective - "Ok, this time allocation thing is broken, I cannot seriously work this much, I want to have a life, how can I fix this". This rule is often quite true in the workplace: You get what you are willing to accept. It is surprising how many things you can change (within limits) if you stop accepting things because they are, make up your mind about your limits (within agreed boundaries) and politely but firmly stick to them. Usually, if you explain your point of view politely, calmly and with confidence you can get pretty good results out of negotiations if you set realistic goals. Of course, some people enjoy working long hours but in this case I would not describe their status as 'caged'.

thothamon 12y ago
I work at a great company now and the hours are very reasonable. But in the past six years, most of the companies I worked for pressured me in various ways to work (unpaid) overtime. Direct management pressure is only one kind of pressure, and was not the predominant one for me. Was it a cage, gilded or otherwise? It was certainly unfair and unpleasant. At some point in one of the companies I worked for, when the hours became truly insane, I just decided not to do it anymore. I was still working a lot, but just chose not to work 60+ hours a week. I would say this choice led to some discomfort at that company, and I might eventually have been fired if I had not moved on. The point is you can't negotiate your way out of everything. Some places are just bad news, and your best option is to leave, if you can. My experience tells me this is fairly common, especially in a bad economy when employers think you have limited alternatives.

nathan_long 12y ago

Developers are generally paid pretty well. If you're being paid well, you have negotiating power. If someone will pay you (say) $80k to work 40 hours a week, probably someone will pay you $40k to work 20 hours a week, or $75k to work 40 but have more vacation. You just need to make your desires clear during the job search process. There is no reason that someone with high-vlue skills should be overworked and miserable. It's a choice.