6 ms·

I have taken a special interest in this story as I have been negatively impacted by having someone use AirBnB in my apartment building. Every step of the way,

by wdewind 12y ago

I have taken a special interest in this story as I have been negatively impacted by having someone use AirBnB in my apartment building. Every step of the way, from what I can tell, AirBnB has been at best deliberately obtuse and at worst actively lying. This post seems to be an example of the latter. When AirBnB says things like: > The vast majority of our hosts are simply renting out their own homes on an occasional basis. The law was never meant to target them, and we now believe the Attorney General did not mean to target regular New Yorkers either. They are purposefully clouding the issue and making it seem like it is about things it's not. Renting out your home on any basis, no matter how occasional, is illegal if you are not present. It doesn't matter if you're a "regular New Yorker" instead of someone who operates a business renting out multiple AirBnB apartments. The simple fact is that the vast majority of AirBnBs in NYC are illegal, and AirBnB has access to the data they need to fix the issue without significant cost to them, except for vastly shrinking their, illegal, market.

ufmace 12y ago
Can you elaborate on how you were negatively impacted? I haven't seen any first-hand accounts of actual negative impacts yet, just people speculating about things that might or could happen.
- dominotw 12y ago
  There is a discussion about this every month on HN. Here is the last one, many first hand accounts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849
  - notlisted 12y ago
    That top post was my first-hand account (and it's all true, so glad I left) but... let's not focus on the small picture of safety/quality of life. The BIG picture is general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads. Fewer apartments/rooms available result in higher rents. This has been noticed all over the world (Amsterdam, Berlin, NYC, San Francisco). While I like the the basic concept of AirBnB (let no resource go to waste) the skirting existing rules/regulations which are in place for a good reason simply has to stop. With regards to the AirBnB post in question, my best guess is that the DA has decided to require details on those properties which indicate actual illegal hotels. The most likely scenario for 'innocent' hosts is that they will need a permit, like Berlin, and in the process of applying for one, they will be vetted appropriately. A recent CNet article outlines issues in cities other than NYC [1]. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-economys-hidden-toll-on-san-francisco/ http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-econo...
    - mr_spothawk 12y ago
      > general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads could you also make the counter-argument: the hotels are keeping prices for rental artificially high by having unused (presumably unrented, or else airBnB would not have such high demand) space they're unwilling to lower their price for.
      - notlisted 12y ago
        I can guarantee you this is very rarely the case for hotels. Like airplane seats, the room is there, the show must go on (ie the hotel cannot close), and the room costs X whether it's filled or not. If the room is not occupied, they miss out. This explains also why companies like HotelTonight (and Priceline bidding option) have such great last-minute deals. Hotels maximize occupancy by making remaining inventory available last-minute at reduced rates (without that rate being published). By the way, AirBnB's demand, according to Mr YCombo, is driven by 'the experience' vs 'the price' (but I doubt that). In NYC, the 15% hotel tax that is skipped, plus getting away with non-payment of income taxes on AirBnB revenue, plus avoiding regulations for hotel safety allows hosts to make AirBnB rooms cheaper.
    - rahimnathwani 12y ago
      I understand that both NYC and San Francisco have rent control (either fixed rents or a maximum annual % increase), at least for some portion of the housing stock. It seems like rent control creates consumer surplus for renters, at the expense of landlords. The use of AirBnB transfers some of this consumer surplus from the original renter to the temporary guest. So, the combination of rent control and AirBnB-style short term rentals takes money from landlords (by restricting their return on capital to below the market level) and shares it between tenants (who become middlemen) and guests. In cities without rent control, does AirBnB thrive to the same extent?
      - wdewind 12y ago
        > It seems like rent control creates consumer surplus for renters, at the expense of landlords. The use of AirBnB transfers some of this consumer surplus from the original renter to the temporary guest. We can obviously agree AirBnB is not the way to address this potential issue. > In cities without rent control, does AirBnB thrive to the same extent? I'd wager that less than 1% of AirBnBs are in rent controlled apartments in NYC. I'm sure rent control has a minor systemic effect, but rent control arbitrage is not the story here.
- wdewind 12y ago
  The link dominotw shared is similar to my experience, but the short version is: 1. Destroyed building property (front door/lock, doorbells, hallways and elevator) 2. Late night parties/music on the roof stopping me from sleeping on weekdays
- jawns 12y ago
  I was recently browsing through New York AirBnB listings, and one in particular caught my eye. The guy who was renting out his place gave very stern instructions to renters. It was basically: I'll meet you out on the street corner and let you into the apartment. DO NOT stand directly outside the lobby. DO NOT talk to anybody else in the apartment building. If anybody else in the apartment building talks to you, DO NOT answer. I have a few guesses as to why he wants everything to remain secretive. When you have a semi-regular or regular stream of strangers going in and out of a neighbor's apartment, it's at best shady-looking and at worst a complete nuisance.
- uptown 12y ago
  This incident was discussed here a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796
- elecengin 12y ago
  The apartment next to mine is an AirBnB "hotel" - continuously rented with no permanent tenant. The cops have come repeatedly to investigate, but the process to evict the "tenant" is slow. I have dealt with: * Very loud guests hosting parties in the (small studio) apartment * Guests loud in the hallways at 1-2am (screaming, drunk, etc) * Guests ignoring fire alarms until other tenants call emergency services for them. It really is horrible. AirBnB does nothing when contacted.
eternalban 12y ago
Their ads are the most annoying things on the subway. The bit about "improving our neighborhoods" is what grates. We do not need more transients in NYC. It is already overrun by tourists and becoming yet another generic big city.
jval 12y ago
It's sad to read stuff like this because Airbnb has enabled people like me to travel in a way I never could have previously. I travelled pre-Airbnb in Europe and was totally screwed over by estate agents and rental professionals who take your thousands of hard-earned dollars while providing tiny photos of places that end up bearing no resemblance to the actual apartment. On Airbnb I always feel like what I see is what I get. The reviews are always honest and descriptive. I've never damaged common property, come home at ridiculous hours or drunk, or made noise. I'm a pretty tame renter but my friends often aren't so I sympathise with people who say this is a problem. What I don't understand is why Airbnb doesn't even make efforts to educate renters about this. They could easily add in an optional course for renters to take that educates people on rental etiquette, and awards you a 'Trusted Renter' designation in the same way they have Verified Phone and ID. A lot of people have never lived in an apartment building and simply have no idea what it is like to do so. Even a text message on check in that says try to be respectful of others in the building would go some way to stopping bad actors. Once Airbnb is regulated it would also be super easy for them to let other people in the building complain. If legitimate complaints from other people in the building went onto profiles that would be the end of bad actors on the system, IMHO.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > What I don't understand is why Airbnb doesn't even make efforts to educate renters about this. They could easily add in an optional course for renters to take that educates people on rental etiquette, and awards you a 'Trusted Renter' designation in the same way they have Verified Phone and ID. A lot of people have never lived in an apartment building and simply have no idea what it is like to do so. Even a text message on check in that says try to be respectful of others in the building would go some way to stopping bad actors. Redfin, the online RE brokerage, does classes in major metro areas for new home buyers. There isn't any reason Airbnb couldn't sponsor the same in New York. The cost would be minimal compared to the potential revenue. I hope someone from AirBNB reads your post!
- tptacek 12y ago
  I have had nothing but good Airbnb experiences too, but trying to build an argument out of that is a little like trying to argue that online auctions are safe because you're an honest person. Some problems only shake out when the market runs at scale and attracts bad actors. Of course, we tolerate chicanery in online auctions because the damage from chicanery is limited to the dealer and the buyer. But that's not the case with Airbnb. I hope Airbnb works through these issues and, if I had to bet, would bet they will.

by wdewind 12y ago

ufmace 12y ago

Can you elaborate on how you were negatively impacted? I haven't seen any first-hand accounts of actual negative impacts yet, just people speculating about things that might or could happen.

dominotw 12y ago
There is a discussion about this every month on HN. Here is the last one, many first hand accounts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849
- notlisted 12y ago
  That top post was my first-hand account (and it's all true, so glad I left) but... let's not focus on the small picture of safety/quality of life. The BIG picture is general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads. Fewer apartments/rooms available result in higher rents. This has been noticed all over the world (Amsterdam, Berlin, NYC, San Francisco). While I like the the basic concept of AirBnB (let no resource go to waste) the skirting existing rules/regulations which are in place for a good reason simply has to stop. With regards to the AirBnB post in question, my best guess is that the DA has decided to require details on those properties which indicate actual illegal hotels. The most likely scenario for 'innocent' hosts is that they will need a permit, like Berlin, and in the process of applying for one, they will be vetted appropriately. A recent CNet article outlines issues in cities other than NYC [1]. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-economys-hidden-toll-on-san-francisco/ http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-econo...
  - mr_spothawk 12y ago
    > general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads could you also make the counter-argument: the hotels are keeping prices for rental artificially high by having unused (presumably unrented, or else airBnB would not have such high demand) space they're unwilling to lower their price for.
    - notlisted 12y ago
      I can guarantee you this is very rarely the case for hotels. Like airplane seats, the room is there, the show must go on (ie the hotel cannot close), and the room costs X whether it's filled or not. If the room is not occupied, they miss out. This explains also why companies like HotelTonight (and Priceline bidding option) have such great last-minute deals. Hotels maximize occupancy by making remaining inventory available last-minute at reduced rates (without that rate being published). By the way, AirBnB's demand, according to Mr YCombo, is driven by 'the experience' vs 'the price' (but I doubt that). In NYC, the 15% hotel tax that is skipped, plus getting away with non-payment of income taxes on AirBnB revenue, plus avoiding regulations for hotel safety allows hosts to make AirBnB rooms cheaper.
  - rahimnathwani 12y ago
    I understand that both NYC and San Francisco have rent control (either fixed rents or a maximum annual % increase), at least for some portion of the housing stock. It seems like rent control creates consumer surplus for renters, at the expense of landlords. The use of AirBnB transfers some of this consumer surplus from the original renter to the temporary guest. So, the combination of rent control and AirBnB-style short term rentals takes money from landlords (by restricting their return on capital to below the market level) and shares it between tenants (who become middlemen) and guests. In cities without rent control, does AirBnB thrive to the same extent?
    - wdewind 12y ago
      > It seems like rent control creates consumer surplus for renters, at the expense of landlords. The use of AirBnB transfers some of this consumer surplus from the original renter to the temporary guest. We can obviously agree AirBnB is not the way to address this potential issue. > In cities without rent control, does AirBnB thrive to the same extent? I'd wager that less than 1% of AirBnBs are in rent controlled apartments in NYC. I'm sure rent control has a minor systemic effect, but rent control arbitrage is not the story here.
wdewind 12y ago
The link dominotw shared is similar to my experience, but the short version is: 1. Destroyed building property (front door/lock, doorbells, hallways and elevator) 2. Late night parties/music on the roof stopping me from sleeping on weekdays
jawns 12y ago
I was recently browsing through New York AirBnB listings, and one in particular caught my eye. The guy who was renting out his place gave very stern instructions to renters. It was basically: I'll meet you out on the street corner and let you into the apartment. DO NOT stand directly outside the lobby. DO NOT talk to anybody else in the apartment building. If anybody else in the apartment building talks to you, DO NOT answer. I have a few guesses as to why he wants everything to remain secretive. When you have a semi-regular or regular stream of strangers going in and out of a neighbor's apartment, it's at best shady-looking and at worst a complete nuisance.
uptown 12y ago
This incident was discussed here a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407796
elecengin 12y ago
The apartment next to mine is an AirBnB "hotel" - continuously rented with no permanent tenant. The cops have come repeatedly to investigate, but the process to evict the "tenant" is slow. I have dealt with: * Very loud guests hosting parties in the (small studio) apartment * Guests loud in the hallways at 1-2am (screaming, drunk, etc) * Guests ignoring fire alarms until other tenants call emergency services for them. It really is horrible. AirBnB does nothing when contacted.

eternalban 12y ago

Their ads are the most annoying things on the subway. The bit about "improving our neighborhoods" is what grates. We do not need more transients in NYC. It is already overrun by tourists and becoming yet another generic big city.

jval 12y ago

It's sad to read stuff like this because Airbnb has enabled people like me to travel in a way I never could have previously. I travelled pre-Airbnb in Europe and was totally screwed over by estate agents and rental professionals who take your thousands of hard-earned dollars while providing tiny photos of places that end up bearing no resemblance to the actual apartment. On Airbnb I always feel like what I see is what I get. The reviews are always honest and descriptive. I've never damaged common property, come home at ridiculous hours or drunk, or made noise. I'm a pretty tame renter but my friends often aren't so I sympathise with people who say this is a problem. What I don't understand is why Airbnb doesn't even make efforts to educate renters about this. They could easily add in an optional course for renters to take that educates people on rental etiquette, and awards you a 'Trusted Renter' designation in the same way they have Verified Phone and ID. A lot of people have never lived in an apartment building and simply have no idea what it is like to do so. Even a text message on check in that says try to be respectful of others in the building would go some way to stopping bad actors. Once Airbnb is regulated it would also be super easy for them to let other people in the building complain. If legitimate complaints from other people in the building went onto profiles that would be the end of bad actors on the system, IMHO.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> What I don't understand is why Airbnb doesn't even make efforts to educate renters about this. They could easily add in an optional course for renters to take that educates people on rental etiquette, and awards you a 'Trusted Renter' designation in the same way they have Verified Phone and ID. A lot of people have never lived in an apartment building and simply have no idea what it is like to do so. Even a text message on check in that says try to be respectful of others in the building would go some way to stopping bad actors. Redfin, the online RE brokerage, does classes in major metro areas for new home buyers. There isn't any reason Airbnb couldn't sponsor the same in New York. The cost would be minimal compared to the potential revenue. I hope someone from AirBNB reads your post!
tptacek 12y ago
I have had nothing but good Airbnb experiences too, but trying to build an argument out of that is a little like trying to argue that online auctions are safe because you're an honest person. Some problems only shake out when the market runs at scale and attracts bad actors. Of course, we tolerate chicanery in online auctions because the damage from chicanery is limited to the dealer and the buyer. But that's not the case with Airbnb. I hope Airbnb works through these issues and, if I had to bet, would bet they will.