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Update on the New York Attorney General’s Investigation

68 points by e15ctr0n 12y ago

ZoFreX 12y ago
This made a lot more sense with the original title: "Airbnb to Out 124 Hosts to New York Attorney General". The new title gives no indication at all as to what this is about.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  Agreed - sometimes sticking to the post's title is a detriment to the reader.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnTHaller 12y ago
    I've noticed a distinct pro-Airbnb slant to coverage on HN, so this is in keeping with that pattern.
    - notlisted 12y ago
      I've noticed three times now that non-positive AirBnB posts disappear from the front page in very little time. How can one find out if an article was penalized?
    - joelrunyon 12y ago
      Well YC has a big investment in them obviously. That said - I'm very pro-airbnb, but I still really need to know about this in case they decide they're going to operate like this in places outside NYC>
      - JohnTHaller 12y ago
        Considering that the majority of their business in NYC is illegal sublets and they're well aware of that fact but lie about it - and purposely mislead the public about it in their commercials and public statements - doesn't exactly paint them as a good player in locations outside NYC.
joelrunyon 12y ago
Interesting that they can just do that. It seems like twitter / google / facebook have taken a much stronger stance against this stuff, but I guess since AirBnB is still relatively "young" - they're willing to jump through hoops a bit more. Honestly - as an AirBnB host - this worries me.
- mtalantikite 12y ago
  Airbnb tried to fight it but they lost. The fact of the matter is that most Airbnb listings in NYC are illegal, and pretty much everyone I know that lists their place on it is aware it's against the law. They do it anyways. Airbnb is trying to cooperate as best they can without giving up too much of their users privacy as they need to get laws changed here in NYC (and other cities) if they want to keep operating in these markets.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    > The fact of the matter is that most Airbnb listings in NYC are illegal Full-apartment listings, yes. As I understand it, many listings renting out a shared part of the living space in which the leaseholder also lives (and is present) are legal, since that's considered taking in a short-term boarder, not subletting, which is allowed in NYC (and in fact protected as a tenant right, even if the landlord tries to ban it in the rental contract).
    - dominicmauro 12y ago
      Last year, this fellow named Warren tried that logic in NYC. It didn't work too well. The Verge ran a piece about it back in May 2013. > The law seems to include an exemption for hosts who rent out an extra room or couch to a "lawful boarder" for less than 30 days, but remain in the dwelling while the guest is there. Because Warren's roommate was home while his Russian boarder was there, he argued that the exemption should apply. However, the judge interpreted the terms "boarders and lodgers" in the law to mean "occupants who share the life of the dwelling with its permanent occupants" and not to "complete strangers who have no, and are not intended to have any, relationship with the permanent occupant." Because the Russian visitor did not interact with Warren or his roommate, the judge said, the exemption should not apply. That last sentence is an interesting interpretation of the judge's decision, but the rest of it is pretty spot on. The opinion in question is here: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/702734/decision-and-order-for-nov-35006622j.pdf http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/702734/decision-and-or... [PDF]
JTon 12y ago
Warning, my post is loosely related to article. I want to share my experience using airbnb and the subsequent run-in with the law. I recently used airbnb for the first time while visiting Washington DC. Unfortunately, my car was broken into while parked on the street overnight. The responding police officer inquired about where we were staying and I told him about airbnb. He has never heard of the service before. About an hour later the officer comes back and asks to speak with the landowner (who was out). The officer was about to give him a warning about operating an unlicensed bed and breakfast with the threat of a $1,000 per day fine.
brixon 12y ago
A link for some background. I had no idea why this was an issue. http://skift.com/2013/05/21/airbnb-is-not-illegal-in-new-york-city-but-many-of-its-hosts-break-the-law/ http://skift.com/2013/05/21/airbnb-is-not-illegal-in-new-yor...
preinheimer 12y ago
Their post talks about people "abusing" their platform. I'm taking that to imply that owning a property to list solely on AirBnB is "abuse". Renting out an entire apartment can be selected to answer the second question on their signup process. https://www.airbnb.ca/rooms/new https://www.airbnb.ca/rooms/new Reading through the various hospitality pages, I don't see anything saying it's only to be used casually to rent out an apartment while you're away. The "Responsible Hosting" page (https://www.airbnb.ca/help/responsible-hosting https://www.airbnb.ca/help/responsible-hosting) seems region specific, but still doesn't say anything along the lines of "renting on AirBnB full time is considered abuse". For something they consider abusive, there doesn't seem to be any large warnings against doing it.
- yebyen 12y ago
  They really didn't specify what "abusing" means, so I don't know how you could infer that from the article. For all we know, a person who is an abusive user means a person who holds multiple leases on separate apartments where a no-sublet clause is in the lease, and rents all of them out simultaneously (pocketing the difference over their rental rate) while providing no further services other than a key drop. They also drew a pretty clear line between the time when (a) "we banned some users we considered abusive" and with (b) "the state of New York asked for information pertaining to a subset of our users in New York, which had a substantial intersection with our banned list from (a)". It's also clear from the article that they don't know what criteria were used by NYS investigators to select 124 users for closer investigation.
- jdmichal 12y ago
  I believe they meant the term "abusive" in the relative sense of New York law, not in the relative sense of AirBnB or its terms of service. I interpret the statement as meaning, "abusing the AirBnB platform to circumvent or break New York law."
  - preinheimer 12y ago
    According to a different reply here, all postings of under 30 days are illegal. I can't imagine only 140 of their New York postings are offering places for less than 30 days. There must be other selection criteria.
jpeg_hero 12y ago
> First, this request represents an incredibly small fraction of our New York hosting community – far less than 1 percent. Good PR spin. Less than <1% of number of users "in our community"... providing 15% of the inventory. Whoops, leave that last part out.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  Do you have a reference for that number? I wouldn't be surprised but would still want to see where you got that from.
wdewind 12y ago
I have taken a special interest in this story as I have been negatively impacted by having someone use AirBnB in my apartment building. Every step of the way, from what I can tell, AirBnB has been at best deliberately obtuse and at worst actively lying. This post seems to be an example of the latter. When AirBnB says things like: > The vast majority of our hosts are simply renting out their own homes on an occasional basis. The law was never meant to target them, and we now believe the Attorney General did not mean to target regular New Yorkers either. They are purposefully clouding the issue and making it seem like it is about things it's not. Renting out your home on any basis, no matter how occasional, is illegal if you are not present. It doesn't matter if you're a "regular New Yorker" instead of someone who operates a business renting out multiple AirBnB apartments. The simple fact is that the vast majority of AirBnBs in NYC are illegal, and AirBnB has access to the data they need to fix the issue without significant cost to them, except for vastly shrinking their, illegal, market.
- ufmace 12y ago
  Can you elaborate on how you were negatively impacted? I haven't seen any first-hand accounts of actual negative impacts yet, just people speculating about things that might or could happen.
  - dominotw 12y ago
    There is a discussion about this every month on HN. Here is the last one, many first hand accounts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849
    - notlisted 12y ago
      That top post was my first-hand account (and it's all true, so glad I left) but... let's not focus on the small picture of safety/quality of life. The BIG picture is general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads. Fewer apartments/rooms available result in higher rents. This has been noticed all over the world (Amsterdam, Berlin, NYC, San Francisco). While I like the the basic concept of AirBnB (let no resource go to waste) the skirting existing rules/regulations which are in place for a good reason simply has to stop. With regards to the AirBnB post in question, my best guess is that the DA has decided to require details on those properties which indicate actual illegal hotels. The most likely scenario for 'innocent' hosts is that they will need a permit, like Berlin, and in the process of applying for one, they will be vetted appropriately. A recent CNet article outlines issues in cities other than NYC [1]. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-economys-hidden-toll-on-san-francisco/ http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-econo...
staunch 12y ago
YouTube used illegal methods to succeed but there was no appreciable damage to anyone. The world was better for what YouTube did. Airbnb is causing actual pain in many people's lives and the problem is fundamental. You simply can't invite dozens of strangers into apartment buildings without causing pain to the other inhabitants. Noise, damage, violence, and other issues are inevitable. Apartments are usually hellish enough with long-term tenants that are subject to real consequences. No Airbnb employee or investor would put up with living in an apartment building full of Airbnb users. They'd go insane. But they do seem wiling to inflict this pain on others. That's evil.
- wdewind 12y ago
  Yep, that is what is making this issue distinct from, say, Uber and Lyft pushing the boundaries on regulation.
  - beamatronic 12y ago
    >> No Airbnb employee or investor would put up with living in an apartment building full of Airbnb users. They'd go insane. Well there's your solution! That's some good out-of-the-box thinking right there.
dominotw 12y ago
Maybe I am one of the people advesely impacted by the the 1% "bad actors" in Chicago. But its simply not fair for them to say because its just a small percentage of hosts we should just ignore it. I just want airbnb to go away. For god's sake please go away. Please ban this website, put the owners in Jail.
metaphorm 12y ago
a huge number of airbnb hosts in NYC are flagrantly breaking the law. this causes significant harm to the permanent residents of New York and the attorney general should do everything in his power to prevent these illegal rentals.
cookiecaper 12y ago
It seems that airbnb will be forced to face the music and adhere to zoning laws and other regulations sooner or later, at least in dense, mostly-apartment cities like New York. I think airbnb is cool, so I hope they choose to comply and assist people in offering legal rentals before this blows up and they go the way of Napster et al. Sometimes, startups need to adapt, just like bigger companies.

68 points by e15ctr0n 12y ago

This made a lot more sense with the original title: "Airbnb to Out 124 Hosts to New York Attorney General". The new title gives no indication at all as to what this is about.

joelrunyon 12y ago
Agreed - sometimes sticking to the post's title is a detriment to the reader.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnTHaller 12y ago
  I've noticed a distinct pro-Airbnb slant to coverage on HN, so this is in keeping with that pattern.
  - notlisted 12y ago
    I've noticed three times now that non-positive AirBnB posts disappear from the front page in very little time. How can one find out if an article was penalized?
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    Well YC has a big investment in them obviously. That said - I'm very pro-airbnb, but I still really need to know about this in case they decide they're going to operate like this in places outside NYC>
    - JohnTHaller 12y ago
      Considering that the majority of their business in NYC is illegal sublets and they're well aware of that fact but lie about it - and purposely mislead the public about it in their commercials and public statements - doesn't exactly paint them as a good player in locations outside NYC.

joelrunyon 12y ago

Interesting that they can just do that. It seems like twitter / google / facebook have taken a much stronger stance against this stuff, but I guess since AirBnB is still relatively "young" - they're willing to jump through hoops a bit more. Honestly - as an AirBnB host - this worries me.

mtalantikite 12y ago
Airbnb tried to fight it but they lost. The fact of the matter is that most Airbnb listings in NYC are illegal, and pretty much everyone I know that lists their place on it is aware it's against the law. They do it anyways. Airbnb is trying to cooperate as best they can without giving up too much of their users privacy as they need to get laws changed here in NYC (and other cities) if they want to keep operating in these markets.
- _delirium 12y ago
  > The fact of the matter is that most Airbnb listings in NYC are illegal Full-apartment listings, yes. As I understand it, many listings renting out a shared part of the living space in which the leaseholder also lives (and is present) are legal, since that's considered taking in a short-term boarder, not subletting, which is allowed in NYC (and in fact protected as a tenant right, even if the landlord tries to ban it in the rental contract).
  - dominicmauro 12y ago
    Last year, this fellow named Warren tried that logic in NYC. It didn't work too well. The Verge ran a piece about it back in May 2013. > The law seems to include an exemption for hosts who rent out an extra room or couch to a "lawful boarder" for less than 30 days, but remain in the dwelling while the guest is there. Because Warren's roommate was home while his Russian boarder was there, he argued that the exemption should apply. However, the judge interpreted the terms "boarders and lodgers" in the law to mean "occupants who share the life of the dwelling with its permanent occupants" and not to "complete strangers who have no, and are not intended to have any, relationship with the permanent occupant." Because the Russian visitor did not interact with Warren or his roommate, the judge said, the exemption should not apply. That last sentence is an interesting interpretation of the judge's decision, but the rest of it is pretty spot on. The opinion in question is here: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/702734/decision-and-order-for-nov-35006622j.pdf http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/702734/decision-and-or... [PDF]

JTon 12y ago

Warning, my post is loosely related to article. I want to share my experience using airbnb and the subsequent run-in with the law. I recently used airbnb for the first time while visiting Washington DC. Unfortunately, my car was broken into while parked on the street overnight. The responding police officer inquired about where we were staying and I told him about airbnb. He has never heard of the service before. About an hour later the officer comes back and asks to speak with the landowner (who was out). The officer was about to give him a warning about operating an unlicensed bed and breakfast with the threat of a $1,000 per day fine.

brixon 12y ago

A link for some background. I had no idea why this was an issue. http://skift.com/2013/05/21/airbnb-is-not-illegal-in-new-york-city-but-many-of-its-hosts-break-the-law/ http://skift.com/2013/05/21/airbnb-is-not-illegal-in-new-yor...

preinheimer 12y ago

Their post talks about people "abusing" their platform. I'm taking that to imply that owning a property to list solely on AirBnB is "abuse". Renting out an entire apartment can be selected to answer the second question on their signup process. https://www.airbnb.ca/rooms/new https://www.airbnb.ca/rooms/new Reading through the various hospitality pages, I don't see anything saying it's only to be used casually to rent out an apartment while you're away. The "Responsible Hosting" page (https://www.airbnb.ca/help/responsible-hosting https://www.airbnb.ca/help/responsible-hosting) seems region specific, but still doesn't say anything along the lines of "renting on AirBnB full time is considered abuse". For something they consider abusive, there doesn't seem to be any large warnings against doing it.

yebyen 12y ago
They really didn't specify what "abusing" means, so I don't know how you could infer that from the article. For all we know, a person who is an abusive user means a person who holds multiple leases on separate apartments where a no-sublet clause is in the lease, and rents all of them out simultaneously (pocketing the difference over their rental rate) while providing no further services other than a key drop. They also drew a pretty clear line between the time when (a) "we banned some users we considered abusive" and with (b) "the state of New York asked for information pertaining to a subset of our users in New York, which had a substantial intersection with our banned list from (a)". It's also clear from the article that they don't know what criteria were used by NYS investigators to select 124 users for closer investigation.
jdmichal 12y ago
I believe they meant the term "abusive" in the relative sense of New York law, not in the relative sense of AirBnB or its terms of service. I interpret the statement as meaning, "abusing the AirBnB platform to circumvent or break New York law."
- preinheimer 12y ago
  According to a different reply here, all postings of under 30 days are illegal. I can't imagine only 140 of their New York postings are offering places for less than 30 days. There must be other selection criteria.

jpeg_hero 12y ago

> First, this request represents an incredibly small fraction of our New York hosting community – far less than 1 percent. Good PR spin. Less than <1% of number of users "in our community"... providing 15% of the inventory. Whoops, leave that last part out.

joelrunyon 12y ago
Do you have a reference for that number? I wouldn't be surprised but would still want to see where you got that from.

wdewind 12y ago

I have taken a special interest in this story as I have been negatively impacted by having someone use AirBnB in my apartment building. Every step of the way, from what I can tell, AirBnB has been at best deliberately obtuse and at worst actively lying. This post seems to be an example of the latter. When AirBnB says things like: > The vast majority of our hosts are simply renting out their own homes on an occasional basis. The law was never meant to target them, and we now believe the Attorney General did not mean to target regular New Yorkers either. They are purposefully clouding the issue and making it seem like it is about things it's not. Renting out your home on any basis, no matter how occasional, is illegal if you are not present. It doesn't matter if you're a "regular New Yorker" instead of someone who operates a business renting out multiple AirBnB apartments. The simple fact is that the vast majority of AirBnBs in NYC are illegal, and AirBnB has access to the data they need to fix the issue without significant cost to them, except for vastly shrinking their, illegal, market.

ufmace 12y ago
Can you elaborate on how you were negatively impacted? I haven't seen any first-hand accounts of actual negative impacts yet, just people speculating about things that might or could happen.
- dominotw 12y ago
  There is a discussion about this every month on HN. Here is the last one, many first hand accounts https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7923849
  - notlisted 12y ago
    That top post was my first-hand account (and it's all true, so glad I left) but... let's not focus on the small picture of safety/quality of life. The BIG picture is general cost of living in all major metropolitan areas where AirBnB has made in-roads. Fewer apartments/rooms available result in higher rents. This has been noticed all over the world (Amsterdam, Berlin, NYC, San Francisco). While I like the the basic concept of AirBnB (let no resource go to waste) the skirting existing rules/regulations which are in place for a good reason simply has to stop. With regards to the AirBnB post in question, my best guess is that the DA has decided to require details on those properties which indicate actual illegal hotels. The most likely scenario for 'innocent' hosts is that they will need a permit, like Berlin, and in the process of applying for one, they will be vetted appropriately. A recent CNet article outlines issues in cities other than NYC [1]. [1] http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-economys-hidden-toll-on-san-francisco/ http://www.cnet.com/news/vexed-in-the-city-the-sharing-econo...

staunch 12y ago

YouTube used illegal methods to succeed but there was no appreciable damage to anyone. The world was better for what YouTube did. Airbnb is causing actual pain in many people's lives and the problem is fundamental. You simply can't invite dozens of strangers into apartment buildings without causing pain to the other inhabitants. Noise, damage, violence, and other issues are inevitable. Apartments are usually hellish enough with long-term tenants that are subject to real consequences. No Airbnb employee or investor would put up with living in an apartment building full of Airbnb users. They'd go insane. But they do seem wiling to inflict this pain on others. That's evil.

wdewind 12y ago
Yep, that is what is making this issue distinct from, say, Uber and Lyft pushing the boundaries on regulation.
- beamatronic 12y ago
  >> No Airbnb employee or investor would put up with living in an apartment building full of Airbnb users. They'd go insane. Well there's your solution! That's some good out-of-the-box thinking right there.

dominotw 12y ago

Maybe I am one of the people advesely impacted by the the 1% "bad actors" in Chicago. But its simply not fair for them to say because its just a small percentage of hosts we should just ignore it. I just want airbnb to go away. For god's sake please go away. Please ban this website, put the owners in Jail.

metaphorm 12y ago

a huge number of airbnb hosts in NYC are flagrantly breaking the law. this causes significant harm to the permanent residents of New York and the attorney general should do everything in his power to prevent these illegal rentals.

cookiecaper 12y ago

It seems that airbnb will be forced to face the music and adhere to zoning laws and other regulations sooner or later, at least in dense, mostly-apartment cities like New York. I think airbnb is cool, so I hope they choose to comply and assist people in offering legal rentals before this blows up and they go the way of Napster et al. Sometimes, startups need to adapt, just like bigger companies.