3 ms·

I am always astonished (not in the positive meaning) by the length of theses sentences. The maximum sentence in Germany is 15 years (except for a life long sent

I am always astonished (not in the positive meaning) by the length of theses sentences. The maximum sentence in Germany is 15 years (except for a life long sentence for murder, which could be longer). (disclaimer: I am a volunteer/part time judge) Edit: I'd like to add that I will not comment in public whether I think the sentence is appropriate or not, as I don't ever want anybody in a trial to accuse me of a biased opinion, although I highly doubt that anyone of "my" indicted people will ever read HN.

ddoolin 12y ago
Allow me to pick your brain: Do you think it's unfair in this kind of sentence? Any kind of sentence over 15 that doesn't qualify for life under German law?
- patrickg 12y ago
  About fairness: I think the discussion is way out of scope of HN, and I think it's about what you expect from a law system in a country. I don't understand your second question. You mean, what kind of sentences are life long sentences? Murder, high treason (?) (Hochverrat gegenüber dem Bund) can be given life long sentence, Sexual abuses against a child in which the child dies (and several other crimes where a person dies can be punished with life long sentence)
  - Tomte 12y ago
    Don't forget genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes (perhaps surprisingly, you can commit genocide without killing a single person). Easily overlooked because it's not in the Strafgesetzbuch (Penal Code) anymore. Probably the only felonies that carry a life sentence that are not found in the Strafgesetzbuch.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
jacquesm 12y ago
In this case it really couldn't be high enough. Looking forward to the system wide audit of all people sentenced by all judges over the last 2 decades to make sure this hasn't happened elsewhere.
- exelius 12y ago
  If such an audit happened and it turned up widespread abuses, do you think it would ever be released? Which is why such an audit hasn't been ordered and probably never will be; at least not publicly. Even if this is going on, it unfortunately probably needs to be cleaned up quietly (i.e. some judges resign, some executives of prison companies sent to jail over accounting irregularities, etc.) I'm willing to bet this is more widespread than we imagine. It's pretty well documented that the justice system targets young black males who receive longer sentences and are more likely to be sent to prison for minor offenses than white offenders of a similar background. And why not? They're less likely to complain, and less likely to be taken seriously when they do because of the stereotype that black men go to prison. As a result, many in poor black communities trust the gang members selling drugs on the corner more than the police (see the whole anti-snitching movement). I know this thread wasn't originally about race, but it's impossible to talk about prisons without talking about race because the justice system is so inherently racist. Just ask yourself if this judge would have gotten caught if he had only sent young black kids to jail. Then ask yourself how many white, well-educated judges are smart enough to realize that. I'm sure the vast majority of judges take their job seriously and would be appalled at this kind of behavior, but it doesn't take many to seriously undermine confidence in the system.
phpnode 12y ago
What do you think would be an appropriate sentence for a crime like this? Society's most vulnerable betrayed by society's most trusted.
- patrickg 12y ago
  It's not really what I think would be appropriate, it's just a comparison of the length of sentences, which is totally different across legislatures. I've seen a TV report about Indonesia, where possessing drugs (if I understand it correctly) has extremley high sentences, comparable to murder here in Germany.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  As someone who's fundamentally opposed to prison for white collar crimes like this, I could suggest: * The felony record he's going to have for the rest of his life * Massive monetary fine, to be automatically garnished from (and only payable by) any wages earned, leaving him with the equivalent of the local minimum wage until the fine is paid. * Permanent banishment from any kind of justice system work, even as far as being a janitor in an administration building. * Community service, on the order of weeks/months of time for each person who was unjustly sentenced.
  - Bud 12y ago
    * Felony record? He's an older, privileged white male. The only substantive effect on him will be loss of voting privileges. * Only payable by wages earned? He's already earned a lifetime's worth of money. Why are you opposed to taking the money from his bank accounts, his house, and his net worth? Seems to me you're trying hard to put up a shield for the wealthy. * Cynical to suggest permanent "banishment" from the justice system. I doubt there was much danger of him being appointed a judge again. So. Why are you opposed to prison for white-collar crimes?
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      Background figures into a lot more than employment and voting, for one. I hadn't considered his current financial situation - I'd be perfectly okay with taking his net worth for damages. In case it wasn't blatantly fucking obvious, this was a list of ideas, non an exhaustive compendium of possible penalties! Cynical? It's an assurance that he never ends up in a position to do this again. I'm opposed to prison for white-collar crimes because I see prison as a place for segregation from society when there is no other option; specifically for violent and dangerous criminals. I don't see how locking this guy up serves any kind of justice other than the poetic type.
mcv 12y ago
I think this level of corruption, the combination of power abuse for profit and ruining lots of young people's lives, is worse than some kinds of murder. Yeah, I'm also amazed at the length of some sentences in the US, but this is one of the few times that I totally agree.
yequalsx 12y ago
The American view of prison tends to be one of retribution and punishment. The European view tends to be one of rehabilitation. An American will typically see this case and hope this judge suffers immeasurably for his crimes. You can count me in this group though I realize this feeling I have for this particular criminal is at odds with my desire for a less brutal prison system than the one we currently have in the U.S. We tend to like long prison sentences. I'm generally astonished with the leniency, from my point of view, given to people convicted of serious crimes in Europe.
metaphorm 12y ago
as an American, I find 28 years to be appropriate for a crime of this magnitude. I only hope he isn't released early on parole.
- icebraining 12y ago
  According to another report, he can be released earlier with good behavior - assuming he lives to be 85 years old.

ddoolin 12y ago

Allow me to pick your brain: Do you think it's unfair in this kind of sentence? Any kind of sentence over 15 that doesn't qualify for life under German law?

patrickg 12y ago
About fairness: I think the discussion is way out of scope of HN, and I think it's about what you expect from a law system in a country. I don't understand your second question. You mean, what kind of sentences are life long sentences? Murder, high treason (?) (Hochverrat gegenüber dem Bund) can be given life long sentence, Sexual abuses against a child in which the child dies (and several other crimes where a person dies can be punished with life long sentence)
- Tomte 12y ago
  Don't forget genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes (perhaps surprisingly, you can commit genocide without killing a single person). Easily overlooked because it's not in the Strafgesetzbuch (Penal Code) anymore. Probably the only felonies that carry a life sentence that are not found in the Strafgesetzbuch.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

jacquesm 12y ago

In this case it really couldn't be high enough. Looking forward to the system wide audit of all people sentenced by all judges over the last 2 decades to make sure this hasn't happened elsewhere.

exelius 12y ago
If such an audit happened and it turned up widespread abuses, do you think it would ever be released? Which is why such an audit hasn't been ordered and probably never will be; at least not publicly. Even if this is going on, it unfortunately probably needs to be cleaned up quietly (i.e. some judges resign, some executives of prison companies sent to jail over accounting irregularities, etc.) I'm willing to bet this is more widespread than we imagine. It's pretty well documented that the justice system targets young black males who receive longer sentences and are more likely to be sent to prison for minor offenses than white offenders of a similar background. And why not? They're less likely to complain, and less likely to be taken seriously when they do because of the stereotype that black men go to prison. As a result, many in poor black communities trust the gang members selling drugs on the corner more than the police (see the whole anti-snitching movement). I know this thread wasn't originally about race, but it's impossible to talk about prisons without talking about race because the justice system is so inherently racist. Just ask yourself if this judge would have gotten caught if he had only sent young black kids to jail. Then ask yourself how many white, well-educated judges are smart enough to realize that. I'm sure the vast majority of judges take their job seriously and would be appalled at this kind of behavior, but it doesn't take many to seriously undermine confidence in the system.

phpnode 12y ago

What do you think would be an appropriate sentence for a crime like this? Society's most vulnerable betrayed by society's most trusted.

patrickg 12y ago
It's not really what I think would be appropriate, it's just a comparison of the length of sentences, which is totally different across legislatures. I've seen a TV report about Indonesia, where possessing drugs (if I understand it correctly) has extremley high sentences, comparable to murder here in Germany.
Karunamon 12y ago
As someone who's fundamentally opposed to prison for white collar crimes like this, I could suggest: * The felony record he's going to have for the rest of his life * Massive monetary fine, to be automatically garnished from (and only payable by) any wages earned, leaving him with the equivalent of the local minimum wage until the fine is paid. * Permanent banishment from any kind of justice system work, even as far as being a janitor in an administration building. * Community service, on the order of weeks/months of time for each person who was unjustly sentenced.
- Bud 12y ago
  * Felony record? He's an older, privileged white male. The only substantive effect on him will be loss of voting privileges. * Only payable by wages earned? He's already earned a lifetime's worth of money. Why are you opposed to taking the money from his bank accounts, his house, and his net worth? Seems to me you're trying hard to put up a shield for the wealthy. * Cynical to suggest permanent "banishment" from the justice system. I doubt there was much danger of him being appointed a judge again. So. Why are you opposed to prison for white-collar crimes?
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Background figures into a lot more than employment and voting, for one. I hadn't considered his current financial situation - I'd be perfectly okay with taking his net worth for damages. In case it wasn't blatantly fucking obvious, this was a list of ideas, non an exhaustive compendium of possible penalties! Cynical? It's an assurance that he never ends up in a position to do this again. I'm opposed to prison for white-collar crimes because I see prison as a place for segregation from society when there is no other option; specifically for violent and dangerous criminals. I don't see how locking this guy up serves any kind of justice other than the poetic type.

mcv 12y ago

I think this level of corruption, the combination of power abuse for profit and ruining lots of young people's lives, is worse than some kinds of murder. Yeah, I'm also amazed at the length of some sentences in the US, but this is one of the few times that I totally agree.

yequalsx 12y ago

The American view of prison tends to be one of retribution and punishment. The European view tends to be one of rehabilitation. An American will typically see this case and hope this judge suffers immeasurably for his crimes. You can count me in this group though I realize this feeling I have for this particular criminal is at odds with my desire for a less brutal prison system than the one we currently have in the U.S. We tend to like long prison sentences. I'm generally astonished with the leniency, from my point of view, given to people convicted of serious crimes in Europe.

metaphorm 12y ago

as an American, I find 28 years to be appropriate for a crime of this magnitude. I only hope he isn't released early on parole.

icebraining 12y ago
According to another report, he can be released earlier with good behavior - assuming he lives to be 85 years old.