5 ms·

Oh man, the whole driving school process in France is so dumb and painful. It is layers of bureaucracy upon layers of bureaucracy. It is the worst in Paris, whe

by GuiA 12y ago

Oh man, the whole driving school process in France is so dumb and painful. It is layers of bureaucracy upon layers of bureaucracy. It is the worst in Paris, where you are going to have to wait longer and pay more to get a license. I have an increasing number of friends in their late 20s/early 30s who live in large French cities and don't even have a license - they live and work in the city, so it's not a problem for them. When they do need to visit family in the more rural areas, they either take the train, or use a carpooling service (the most popular one is blablacar.com, which has been taking off like crazy in the recent years. The vast majority of French people I talk to when I go back home have heard of it- one of the few innovative French startups). In France, I spent a year and half and about 1500 euros in driving lessons related stuff and didn't get my license. When I first moved to the US (southern state), it cost me something like 30 bucks and 30 minutes of my time. The test consisted of driving around the block, and parking the car (only snag: the inspector by my side, a rather overweight lady, told me that I'd lose points the further away I parked from the DMV's front door. I thought she was joking, but she wasn't). The conservative French people say that more expensive, stricter, longer times for obtaining a driver license leads to safer roads; but if you compare US driving fatalities to French ones, there's not much of a difference- and people in the US drive way more than they do in France. Like many other aspects of French culture, it's ridiculous how deeply legislated it is, and how the only ones benefitting from it are the ones making the rules. I find certain aspects of the US driving culture a little too much on the other extreme of the spectrum (learner's permit at 14? the driving test being just a drive around the block? the written test being a multiple choice questionnaire with the answers available on YouTube?), but France is worse by far, and it's hurting young professionals (my brother is without a college degree, and when he was unemployed he found that most jobs in rural areas require a car- but getting a license takes forever and is expensive. So that was a few months where he could do little but wait to get his driving license).

k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> "if you compare US driving fatalities to French ones, there's not much of a difference" Source for this? There's someone a few comments down claiming that fatalities are much lower than the US.
- smm2000 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-re... 7.6 per 1 billion km in US against 6.3 per 1 billion km in France. I would say very comparable especially if you consider that more older/younger people drive in US than in France.
  - bosie 12y ago
    regarding your second sentence... 11.6 (US) against 4.9 (France) per 100 000 inhabitants, from the same link.
    - learc83 12y ago
      Yes per 100,000 inhabitants, but to determine driver safety the correct metric is fatalities per x unit of distance driven, which is what the GP was using. People in the US drive far more often than those in France, you'd expect for driving fatalities.
  - petercooper 12y ago
    Meanwhile, 4.3 in the UK, a country demographically similar to France and where it's trivial to get a car and license. This makes me think the process of getting a license plays a big role in fatality rates, but more road quality, layout, better street furniture, signage, etc (which are all notably better in the UK than France).
    - pyb 12y ago
      Not really, The difficulty of getting a license is similar in France and the UK (source : I did both)
      - petercooper 12y ago
        Since you've done both, are the parent article and other comments in this thread overemphasizing how difficult it is in France or did I just have a great experience here? I've done the test twice in the UK (auto + manual) - it wasn't arduous, nor did it take long to schedule (I think it was about 3 weeks out) and the computerised test was a case of picking the least stupid answer, unlike the riddles the parent article implies the French have to navigate.
sigstoat 12y ago
> the driving test being just a drive around the block? it varies quite a bit by DMV location. i've seen a weak correlation between local traffic levels and test duration/difficulty. which isn't the most unreasonable thing. i'd like to see the folks who administer the test given some feedback about the number of licensees they tested who had an accident in their first year driving. and then provided the mean value for other testers in their zip code/state/etc.
hk__2 12y ago
> it cost me something like 30 bucks and 30 minutes of my time It cost you 30 bucks and 30 minutes of your time to pass the exam, not to learn how to drive. That’s what is costly in France, because it costs ~€50/hour to have someone teaching you how to drive. People usually take at least 20 hours to learn, which is 20x50 = €1000. If you already know how to drive you can bypass the whole process and pass the exam as a “candidat libre”, which is free [1] (but it’s hard to get a slot). [1]: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml (in French)
- Wilya 12y ago
  As far I can tell, though it's not said explicitly in the linked article, you still have to justify that you have driven 20 hours in a car with dual-command (which will cost you 15-20€/hour to rent). That might be better than going through a driving school, but that's definitely not as cheap as the US.
- aragot 12y ago
  I did pass my test 14 years ago with 20,00 hours of driving lessons and 2400F (a ridiculous 350€). In the recent years, I know no-one who passed the test with less than 28 hours, and that's an unilateral decision on the school side.
- Natsu 12y ago
  Where I learned in the US, we had a few weeks of driver's ed classes in HS, then practiced with an instructor for a bit. After that, getting a permit then a license was simple enough. At this point, I don't get anything more than vision tests and I don't actually have to renew my license until I'm 60 or something.
- baby 12y ago
  > People usually take at least 20 hours to learn I've never heard of anyone taking less than 30 hours. And if you do 30 hours sharp you're one the lucky ones.
realusername 12y ago
(another french here). I sadly agree on everything said here... I would like to add that in my opinion, the main problem in France is that everything related to driving is now turned into a business. Usually the driving test is less about driving and more about how long they can keep you in the DMV to charge you money. There is not a lot of preparation to the driving test itself in order to fail the test the first time (so they can charge you after that). I've also seen verbal agreements between driving inspectors and DMV's (I guess this is easier to do on the country side).
bdcravens 12y ago
the driving test being just a drive around the block? This varies. Driving is regulated at the state level, not the federal, and even then, it's pretty subjective. I grew up poor, so didn't get my first license until I was 22. I was in a small town in Oklahoma, so there was one place to take it. First two times I failed; the officer grading the test was pretty much by the book. Third time, it was a laid back dude, and he didn't even have me parallel park. Gave me a 97 or something crazy like that.
- saryant 12y ago
  I got my license at 16 without ever taking a driving test. To say it "varies" is a severe understatement.
learc83 12y ago
>learner's permit at 14? I'm pretty sure there are only 2 states where that's the case. It's definately not a normal thing for the vast majority of Americans. It's 15 in most states 16 in a few. Edit: It's actually 5 states, plus 3 more that allow teenagers to get learners permits at between 14.5 and 15 with additional drivers education requirements. Here's the numbers on just how many. If you include Michigan with full permits at 14.75 at the asbolute earliest (though most teens wouldn't be able to complete a 40 hour drivers education course that fast so the average will be even closer to 15)--then around 7.3% of teenagers can get their learners permit sometime during their 14th year. If you don't include Michigan only 4.1% can.
- johnm1019 12y ago
  Definitely more than 2. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/graduatedlicenseintro http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/graduatedlicenseintro
  - learc83 12y ago
    You're right. That list is a bit more complicated than it looks though. There are 5 states that allow a teenager to get a learners permit on their 14th birthday. I was aware of Iowa and Sout Dakota, but I wasn't aware that North Dakota, Kansans, and Arkansas do this as well. Michigan and Idaho issue learners permits at 14 years and 8 months, and 14 years and 6 months respectively. However they only allow driving during a drivers education class until that course is completed. Also Montanta issues permits at 14.5 if enrolled in a drivers ed class. Most of these states are also very rural with very small populations, so the vast majority of American 14 year olds cannot get a learners permit.
superuser2 12y ago
It's not a bad thing that people take trains rather than drive or that economic incentives favor living in cities. Those are, in fact, things a country can want - for a multitude of reasons. Environmental impact, cultural centers, oil politics, etc. The fact that car-centric suburban culture is difficult to attain may be feature, not a bug.
- cardiffspaceman 12y ago
  This article does not describe a democratic process leading to a consensus that driving should be minimized. This article describes rent seekers abusing regulations at the expense of a populace that in fact needs to drive whtether it wants to or not.
baby 12y ago
Can't agree more. The system is retarded here. I didn't have the time to pass my license before leaving the country so I had to repay it when I came back from a year abroad. I failed the test then had to wait 6 months to retake it. I just gave up and I will wait to live in another country where it's cheaper and faster to get a license. I have many friends my age (mid 20s) who don't own a license either. If you live in a city you usually don't need one, if you want to travel you either take the train or use blablacar as parent said.
chipsy 12y ago
For San Francisco/Peninsula DMV locations, the drive test is reasonably challenging and involves signal use, merging, making unprotected turns, backing, and complex intersections. I failed it twice with my parent's car and resumed my attempt to pass a few years later, this time paying for lessons. Like every other merit-oriented institution, there's an industry around gaming this system. Besides having valuable information about test details, the driving schools get to jump ahead of the line and get earlier test dates and plusher time slots, and take their lesson fee on top of the test fee. The message is pretty clear: Fork up the cash to go through a school if you want to get your license in a timely fashion. The schools themselves vary from utter crap to the guy that I went with(Mr. Yu), who has done it part time for over 20 years and has perfect knowledge of all three of the designated routes the Daly City examiners use, tips for each intersection, tips for some specific examiners(!), and a pleasant and persistent attitude. Mr. Yu is popular enough to be booked solid for a month in advance, but apart from that there's hardly any wasted time - I am paying about $700 for three sessions of two hours(that time including pickup and dropoff, all of which I drove on my own) and the test itself, which I'm taking in September.

by GuiA 12y ago

k-mcgrady 12y ago

>> "if you compare US driving fatalities to French ones, there's not much of a difference" Source for this? There's someone a few comments down claiming that fatalities are much lower than the US.

smm2000 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-re... 7.6 per 1 billion km in US against 6.3 per 1 billion km in France. I would say very comparable especially if you consider that more older/younger people drive in US than in France.
- bosie 12y ago
  regarding your second sentence... 11.6 (US) against 4.9 (France) per 100 000 inhabitants, from the same link.
  - learc83 12y ago
    Yes per 100,000 inhabitants, but to determine driver safety the correct metric is fatalities per x unit of distance driven, which is what the GP was using. People in the US drive far more often than those in France, you'd expect for driving fatalities.
- petercooper 12y ago
  Meanwhile, 4.3 in the UK, a country demographically similar to France and where it's trivial to get a car and license. This makes me think the process of getting a license plays a big role in fatality rates, but more road quality, layout, better street furniture, signage, etc (which are all notably better in the UK than France).
  - pyb 12y ago
    Not really, The difficulty of getting a license is similar in France and the UK (source : I did both)
    - petercooper 12y ago
      Since you've done both, are the parent article and other comments in this thread overemphasizing how difficult it is in France or did I just have a great experience here? I've done the test twice in the UK (auto + manual) - it wasn't arduous, nor did it take long to schedule (I think it was about 3 weeks out) and the computerised test was a case of picking the least stupid answer, unlike the riddles the parent article implies the French have to navigate.

sigstoat 12y ago

> the driving test being just a drive around the block? it varies quite a bit by DMV location. i've seen a weak correlation between local traffic levels and test duration/difficulty. which isn't the most unreasonable thing. i'd like to see the folks who administer the test given some feedback about the number of licensees they tested who had an accident in their first year driving. and then provided the mean value for other testers in their zip code/state/etc.

hk__2 12y ago

> it cost me something like 30 bucks and 30 minutes of my time It cost you 30 bucks and 30 minutes of your time to pass the exam, not to learn how to drive. That’s what is costly in France, because it costs ~€50/hour to have someone teaching you how to drive. People usually take at least 20 hours to learn, which is 20x50 = €1000. If you already know how to drive you can bypass the whole process and pass the exam as a “candidat libre”, which is free [1] (but it’s hard to get a slot). [1]: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml (in French)

Wilya 12y ago
As far I can tell, though it's not said explicitly in the linked article, you still have to justify that you have driven 20 hours in a car with dual-command (which will cost you 15-20€/hour to rent). That might be better than going through a driving school, but that's definitely not as cheap as the US.
aragot 12y ago
I did pass my test 14 years ago with 20,00 hours of driving lessons and 2400F (a ridiculous 350€). In the recent years, I know no-one who passed the test with less than 28 hours, and that's an unilateral decision on the school side.
Natsu 12y ago
Where I learned in the US, we had a few weeks of driver's ed classes in HS, then practiced with an instructor for a bit. After that, getting a permit then a license was simple enough. At this point, I don't get anything more than vision tests and I don't actually have to renew my license until I'm 60 or something.
baby 12y ago
> People usually take at least 20 hours to learn I've never heard of anyone taking less than 30 hours. And if you do 30 hours sharp you're one the lucky ones.

realusername 12y ago

(another french here). I sadly agree on everything said here... I would like to add that in my opinion, the main problem in France is that everything related to driving is now turned into a business. Usually the driving test is less about driving and more about how long they can keep you in the DMV to charge you money. There is not a lot of preparation to the driving test itself in order to fail the test the first time (so they can charge you after that). I've also seen verbal agreements between driving inspectors and DMV's (I guess this is easier to do on the country side).

bdcravens 12y ago

the driving test being just a drive around the block? This varies. Driving is regulated at the state level, not the federal, and even then, it's pretty subjective. I grew up poor, so didn't get my first license until I was 22. I was in a small town in Oklahoma, so there was one place to take it. First two times I failed; the officer grading the test was pretty much by the book. Third time, it was a laid back dude, and he didn't even have me parallel park. Gave me a 97 or something crazy like that.

saryant 12y ago
I got my license at 16 without ever taking a driving test. To say it "varies" is a severe understatement.

learc83 12y ago

>learner's permit at 14? I'm pretty sure there are only 2 states where that's the case. It's definately not a normal thing for the vast majority of Americans. It's 15 in most states 16 in a few. Edit: It's actually 5 states, plus 3 more that allow teenagers to get learners permits at between 14.5 and 15 with additional drivers education requirements. Here's the numbers on just how many. If you include Michigan with full permits at 14.75 at the asbolute earliest (though most teens wouldn't be able to complete a 40 hour drivers education course that fast so the average will be even closer to 15)--then around 7.3% of teenagers can get their learners permit sometime during their 14th year. If you don't include Michigan only 4.1% can.

johnm1019 12y ago
Definitely more than 2. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/graduatedlicenseintro http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/graduatedlicenseintro
- learc83 12y ago
  You're right. That list is a bit more complicated than it looks though. There are 5 states that allow a teenager to get a learners permit on their 14th birthday. I was aware of Iowa and Sout Dakota, but I wasn't aware that North Dakota, Kansans, and Arkansas do this as well. Michigan and Idaho issue learners permits at 14 years and 8 months, and 14 years and 6 months respectively. However they only allow driving during a drivers education class until that course is completed. Also Montanta issues permits at 14.5 if enrolled in a drivers ed class. Most of these states are also very rural with very small populations, so the vast majority of American 14 year olds cannot get a learners permit.

superuser2 12y ago

It's not a bad thing that people take trains rather than drive or that economic incentives favor living in cities. Those are, in fact, things a country can want - for a multitude of reasons. Environmental impact, cultural centers, oil politics, etc. The fact that car-centric suburban culture is difficult to attain may be feature, not a bug.

cardiffspaceman 12y ago
This article does not describe a democratic process leading to a consensus that driving should be minimized. This article describes rent seekers abusing regulations at the expense of a populace that in fact needs to drive whtether it wants to or not.

baby 12y ago

Can't agree more. The system is retarded here. I didn't have the time to pass my license before leaving the country so I had to repay it when I came back from a year abroad. I failed the test then had to wait 6 months to retake it. I just gave up and I will wait to live in another country where it's cheaper and faster to get a license. I have many friends my age (mid 20s) who don't own a license either. If you live in a city you usually don't need one, if you want to travel you either take the train or use blablacar as parent said.

chipsy 12y ago

For San Francisco/Peninsula DMV locations, the drive test is reasonably challenging and involves signal use, merging, making unprotected turns, backing, and complex intersections. I failed it twice with my parent's car and resumed my attempt to pass a few years later, this time paying for lessons. Like every other merit-oriented institution, there's an industry around gaming this system. Besides having valuable information about test details, the driving schools get to jump ahead of the line and get earlier test dates and plusher time slots, and take their lesson fee on top of the test fee. The message is pretty clear: Fork up the cash to go through a school if you want to get your license in a timely fashion. The schools themselves vary from utter crap to the guy that I went with(Mr. Yu), who has done it part time for over 20 years and has perfect knowledge of all three of the designated routes the Daly City examiners use, tips for each intersection, tips for some specific examiners(!), and a pleasant and persistent attitude. Mr. Yu is popular enough to be booked solid for a month in advance, but apart from that there's hardly any wasted time - I am paying about $700 for three sessions of two hours(that time including pickup and dropoff, all of which I drove on my own) and the test itself, which I'm taking in September.