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Speaking as someone who was recruited out of university into the management training program of a Korean conglomerate, the life these kids are headed for is ind

by kyllo 12y ago

Speaking as someone who was recruited out of university into the management training program of a Korean conglomerate, the life these kids are headed for is indeed soul-crushing. Common activities will include trying to stay awake during two-hour meetings with no agenda, surfing the internet while pretending to work, but still having to stay for at least 10 hours, and mandatory evening drinking/karaoke parties with the boss. And consuming a fuckton of instant coffee and cigarettes.

w1ntermute 12y ago
If Korean conglomerates are so terribly managed, why have they been so successful?[0] 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_the_Han_River http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_the_Han_River
- pavedwalden 12y ago
  This comment was on its way to being greyed out when I came by (perhaps it was read as argumentative rather than inquisitive), but it's something that I wondered about too. Whenever I hear about terrible practices within an industry or particular company, I'm curious what counterbalancing factors allow it to carry on.
  - w1ntermute 12y ago
    I didn't mean to sound argumentative. I'm not suggesting that there aren't inefficiencies and problems with management at Korean conglomerates. I'm genuinely interested in this seeming contradiction, and in exactly how certain countries have managed to modernize so successfully, while others are stuck in a rut: http://i.imgur.com/yUoeWW0.png http://i.imgur.com/yUoeWW0.png
- Bahamut 12y ago
  From what I understand, the quality of life sucks in Korea. For example, I am told secondhand of some terrible working conditions in Samsung, and the reason why employees put up with it is because there are many Koreans willing to put up with awful conditions just to be able to say that they worked at Samsung & have a stable job.
  - w1ntermute 12y ago
    > From what I understand, the quality of life sucks in Korea. I don't see any point in arguing about secondhand anecdotal data about working conditions at one specific company (I could regale you with a dozen such anecdotes heard from friends about working conditions at American companies), but South Korea's HDI is now 0.891, above countries like Japan, France, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Italy, and Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Very_high_human_development http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - boyaka 12y ago
      >Where do data for HDI computation come from? Life expectancy at birth is provided by the UN Department of Economic and Social Affairs – the UN Population Division; mean years of schooling are based on UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS) educational attainment data and Barro and Lee (2013) methodology; expected years of schooling are provided by UIS; and GNI per capita in 2011 PPP by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. To me it sounds like a recipe for a miserable work life. The Japanese/Korean schooling systems are very tough and strict compared to other wealthy countries. Maybe this is why they became so wealthy? Also, this statistic claims to not be based on economic output, but it basically is. And in order get the highest economic output, that is going to require really hard work and a lot of rich people/companies/countries investing in you. Of course some countries have unfair advantages and don't need to work so hard.
      - kyllo 12y ago
        Yeah the system is basically optimized for "spend as much time at the office as possible" as a measure of productivity. Over a long period of time, with a lot of people, things do get done, but it's horribly inefficient. Meanwhile in a lot of other countries, hardly anyone even has an office to go to at all. Globally, the bar for productivity of human labor is really quite low.
    - 12y ago
- judk 12y ago
  I know nothing about Korea, but one possibility is that a small phenomenal success generates an industry or makework that is effectively just siphoning off the value of the core success. Imagine a startup that generates a $billion in profit from factory made gadgets, but reinvests the profit in bad ideas poorly implemented by office non-workers, effectively middle-class welfare jobs program.
  - kyllo 12y ago
    This. Koreans have a strong sense of community, and are extremely group-oriented. Sharing, fairness within the group, and conformity to social norms are highly valued. As a side effect, when a product becomes commercially successful, a large bureaucracy is quickly established underneath it, which subsidizes a lot of other unproductive activity and becomes dead wood over time.
potatolicious 12y ago
Many white collar American megaconglomerates are similar, without the karaoke bits. Depressing offices in the middle of nowhere, endless pointless meetings, not a whole lot of real work and a lot of looking-busy. Office Space exists for a reason. Hell, I once dated a consultant with Accenture who flew around constantly to client sites but seemed to just sit around once there racking up the billables. "Mandatory partying with the coworkers/boss" seems to be something American corporate culture has largely avoided, but sadly the startup tech culture has embraced.
marveller 12y ago
This foreigner TV talk show discusses about this exact issue in Korea (starts around 14:50) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24chlk http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24chlk

by kyllo 12y ago

w1ntermute 12y ago

If Korean conglomerates are so terribly managed, why have they been so successful?[0] 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_the_Han_River http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_the_Han_River

pavedwalden 12y ago
This comment was on its way to being greyed out when I came by (perhaps it was read as argumentative rather than inquisitive), but it's something that I wondered about too. Whenever I hear about terrible practices within an industry or particular company, I'm curious what counterbalancing factors allow it to carry on.
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  I didn't mean to sound argumentative. I'm not suggesting that there aren't inefficiencies and problems with management at Korean conglomerates. I'm genuinely interested in this seeming contradiction, and in exactly how certain countries have managed to modernize so successfully, while others are stuck in a rut: http://i.imgur.com/yUoeWW0.png http://i.imgur.com/yUoeWW0.png
Bahamut 12y ago
From what I understand, the quality of life sucks in Korea. For example, I am told secondhand of some terrible working conditions in Samsung, and the reason why employees put up with it is because there are many Koreans willing to put up with awful conditions just to be able to say that they worked at Samsung & have a stable job.
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  > From what I understand, the quality of life sucks in Korea. I don't see any point in arguing about secondhand anecdotal data about working conditions at one specific company (I could regale you with a dozen such anecdotes heard from friends about working conditions at American companies), but South Korea's HDI is now 0.891, above countries like Japan, France, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Italy, and Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Very_high_human_development http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - boyaka 12y ago
    >Where do data for HDI computation come from? Life expectancy at birth is provided by the UN Department of Economic and Social Affairs – the UN Population Division; mean years of schooling are based on UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS) educational attainment data and Barro and Lee (2013) methodology; expected years of schooling are provided by UIS; and GNI per capita in 2011 PPP by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. To me it sounds like a recipe for a miserable work life. The Japanese/Korean schooling systems are very tough and strict compared to other wealthy countries. Maybe this is why they became so wealthy? Also, this statistic claims to not be based on economic output, but it basically is. And in order get the highest economic output, that is going to require really hard work and a lot of rich people/companies/countries investing in you. Of course some countries have unfair advantages and don't need to work so hard.
    - kyllo 12y ago
      Yeah the system is basically optimized for "spend as much time at the office as possible" as a measure of productivity. Over a long period of time, with a lot of people, things do get done, but it's horribly inefficient. Meanwhile in a lot of other countries, hardly anyone even has an office to go to at all. Globally, the bar for productivity of human labor is really quite low.
  - 12y ago
judk 12y ago
I know nothing about Korea, but one possibility is that a small phenomenal success generates an industry or makework that is effectively just siphoning off the value of the core success. Imagine a startup that generates a $billion in profit from factory made gadgets, but reinvests the profit in bad ideas poorly implemented by office non-workers, effectively middle-class welfare jobs program.
- kyllo 12y ago
  This. Koreans have a strong sense of community, and are extremely group-oriented. Sharing, fairness within the group, and conformity to social norms are highly valued. As a side effect, when a product becomes commercially successful, a large bureaucracy is quickly established underneath it, which subsidizes a lot of other unproductive activity and becomes dead wood over time.

potatolicious 12y ago

Many white collar American megaconglomerates are similar, without the karaoke bits. Depressing offices in the middle of nowhere, endless pointless meetings, not a whole lot of real work and a lot of looking-busy. Office Space exists for a reason. Hell, I once dated a consultant with Accenture who flew around constantly to client sites but seemed to just sit around once there racking up the billables. "Mandatory partying with the coworkers/boss" seems to be something American corporate culture has largely avoided, but sadly the startup tech culture has embraced.

marveller 12y ago

This foreigner TV talk show discusses about this exact issue in Korea (starts around 14:50) http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24chlk http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24chlk