8 ms·

Inside the world of legalised prostitution in Germany

111 points by ca98am79 12y ago

forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
Why was the title changed from the OPs original title, which much better characterized the story?
- jdmichal 12y ago
  The title would normally be changed to "Welcome to Paradise", which is the article title. Due to the content, not sure if a mod will reduce it to just that...
  - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
    Right, which is why I believe the original title was more informative than the updated title. (Original title being: "Welcome to Paradise: inside the world of legalised prostitution", which I believe could have only been made more accurate to the story by adding "in Germany") IIRC, the reason for changing submission titles is to ensure clarity, and dissuade editorialization, however this submission was changed to a less clear title.
    - dang 12y ago
      We changed it to the doc title, but without the baity prefix.
lispm 12y ago
> When Germany legalised prostitution in 2002 it triggered an apparently unstoppable growth in the country’s sex industry. One needs to be careful when making judgements about what the causes were for this growth. One need to keep in mind that Germany has several strong driving forces for change in our society and around us. * economic collapse in former east europe * change in political and economic systems * open borders * a lot of poor and desperate people in Germany and in neighbor countries. * Many european countries further in the east are even worse in most ways: no jobs, no perspective, corruption, very little recovery, ... * Germany had an economic recovery during the last decade and has been able to control the effects of the world-wide financial crisis on its economy. * the Euro in Germany and west Europe remained stable. In those troubled country in the east, there is no Euro. Some smaller countries now joined the Eurozone. We had the reunification of east and west germany. 20 million people had a drastic change in life, with their economy collapsing, authorities gone, the political system changed, jobs gone, ... Some recovery happened in the last decade, but that was very tough for many people and dampened by a lot of money from mostly western parts of Germany. All borders to neighbor countries are now wide open. All the east european countries went through even harder economic times. The financial crisis made it even worse. High unemployment in neighbor countries, especially for young people, while unemployment in Germany was going down. Many people moved to west europe for work. Legal or not. Eastern neighbors all joined the EU, which for example now means that people can move freely and work freely in other countries. Thus it's not easy to compare it with other countries and it is not possible to think about prostitution independent from the other developments. The number of people in prostition is not just depending on the type of law. Germany has rich West Germany and an added East Germany. At its border it has countries with a lot of poor people, formely all communist. This difference in wealth, job opportunities, etc. creates enough opportunities which can be exploited. Thus we would have seen a lot increase in the sex business, whether we would have legalized it or not. Trying to control that with police and laws would have been very very difficult. There are open borders to all sides. Thinking that young women from eastern Europe would not been here, if laws were tougher is naive. We didn't open the borders to create new ones. I think it was a smart move to prevent people from going underground. Still it makes sense to look if changes to the laws etc. are necessary after more than a decade.
- oakaz 12y ago
  As I know the border of Germany is pretty strict. I hear lots of horror stories from not only well educated people, but also people write books, makes music, etc. Even well known singers can't get visa to give their concert in Germany sometimes. So how come unemployed people from poor neighbor countries can just go Germany and do prostution? It sounds realistic at first hear but thinking about the border officers in Germany, I think you kinda wanna think majority of the prostutes are not Germans.
  - rtpg 12y ago
    Well, there is the Schengen Zone, meaning you can source a decent amount of people from some of Eastern Europe. Not taking a position on GP's thesis that most prostitutes come from poorer countries though.
    - lispm 12y ago
      The Schengen zone means that border controls are at the countries at its border. Everyone who enters the Schengen zone then can move freely to Germany without any controls (exception: flights from non-Schengen countries to Germany). Their are no real border control between the Schengen zone countries. The Schengen area are has 420 million people. That's like the US + Mexico, but in 26 countries. The US is closing its border to Mexico - Europe has opened up a lot of borders. But the EU is larger than the Schengen zone. Britain for example is not a part of the Schengen zone, but due to EU law everyone in Britain is free to move to Germany and legally allowed to work here. Then there are a lot of people in east Europe not in the EU. Many of them under a worse economic and political situation (Ukraine, ...). That motivates a lot of people...
  - lispm 12y ago
    What you hear is wrong. German border controls are mostly non existent. In a physical way. Drive over the border and you are in Germany. No fence. No controls. Border controls are down to a minimum. Poland is next to us. No one in Poland needs a visa. There are no real border controls between Poland and us. The Czech are next to us. No one needs a visa. No real border controls. France is next to us. No real border controls. Nobody needs a visa. We even have the same currency. Everybody in the EU (505 million people) can work move and work everywhere (mostly). Nobody needs a visa. Even from countries where a visa is needed, moving to Germany and staying illegal is relatively easy. And so on.
Eliezer 12y ago
I wonder whether legislating a minimum rate paid for prostitution (e.g. 100 euros per hour), with violations criminal for the underpayer but not for the prostitute, would have resulted in a nicer-looking industry. In other words, whether it would have been practically possible to selectively legalize high-end sex work.
- snitko 12y ago
  So, you are essentially discriminating against ugly sex workers.
  - jrockway 12y ago
    Kind of like how Hollywood discriminates against ugly actors?
- nazgulnarsil 12y ago
  This strategy has been tried with guns, i.e. create expensive hoops to jump through such that poor people can afford fewer guns. The additional violence from the blackmarket of gunrunning cheap guns to meet the demand probably offsets any gains.
- capisce 12y ago
  Or even better, pay them basic income - now women would no longer need to prostitute themselves out of desperation, and only the ones who really saw this as a lucrative career would choose it.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    Yeah, pay basic income then prices for everything goes up and you are back at sqiare1.
    - capisce 12y ago
      Source?
andrewstuart 12y ago
I can't remember a time when prostitution was illegal in Australia. It's hard to understand countries where it's not legal. Funny even that's it's an interesting topic.
- forrestthewoods 12y ago
  You really can't understand why it would be illegal? Even if you are radically opposed it should be pretty damn easy to come up with a long list of reasons as to why someone else might wish it to be illegal.
  - jackvalentine 12y ago
    And then you compare those reasons to the reality of the situation, and the arguments for legality and you "(find it) hard to understand countries where it's not legal". He didn't say "I can't think of a list of reasons for it to be illegal".
  - ObviousScience 12y ago
    Can you name a few that aren't just "sex is bad, so I'll legislate that" or "a woman shouldn't sleep around"?
    - capisce 12y ago
      From the article: "Sex trafficking statistics are frustratingly incomplete, but a recent report estimated the number of victims in Europe at 270,000." We accept this form of modern slavery? "Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population." There's a good argument against legalization.
      - guruz 12y ago
        Although it seems to me like making it illegal is as futile as the war on durgs. Legalizing and controlling makes more sense to me.
smegel 12y ago
The reality is prostition helps many young girls in their early 20s escape poverty and set themselves up for life. They can easily earn 100-200k a year, and after 2-3 years buy a house and move onto other occupations or start a family. Ones that stay on beyond that do so out of desperation or laziness, a tiny minority are actually forced to stay in the industry against their will. People who critize this need to understand the options for women from places of abject poverty are not great either.
- allegory 12y ago
  This. I had a friend who got herself through a medicine degree in the UK via prostitution. Her parents' income was too high to get a grant and good loan but they couldn't help her because of the chains of debt. She told them she was working in Dominos branch. She's a surgical reg now, happily married for over 10 years with two children so did ok out of it and wasn't harmed in any way and says she quite enjoyed it.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That's a pretty rare story though. It could have very easily ended up with her either dead or pushed to use drugs. Think of her as the lucky exception in a long long string of girls that tried the same thing and that ended up being eaten by 'the life'. I have not one but two nieces that ended up like that and where once they were bright and healthy girls they are now shadows.
    - allegory 12y ago
      I think it depends how and who markets you. If you're not in control of it, then it's not going to end well.
    - icecreampain 12y ago
      sigh It COULD have ended up with her dead or pushed to use drugs. It COULD also have ended up with her as the President of the World and the first person on Pluto. It COULD also have ended up with her turning into Jesus and killing people left and right. But it didn't. What happened: the reality (which you seem so very interested in avoiding) is that she ended up with a job, house and family. Rather than thinking of her as the lucky exception, why not think of her as an example of a prositute that got herself a job, house and family, and your two nieces as examples of prositutes that got fucked up? Isn't that a far more objective, less emotionally-based statement than the one you made?
joshfraser 12y ago
For me, it comes down to a really simple principle: Your body, your rules. Why should some people get to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies? Our responsibility as a society is to figure out how to make it as safe as possible for the people who find them in the unfortunate situation where prostitution looks like the best option. Edited to be gender neutral.
- capisce 12y ago
  Yes - your body, your rules, but in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that. And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option, maybe we could introduce basic income so that many of them would not have to consider this option in the first place. I would say that's our responsibility as a society.
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    >> "in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that" But isn't forced prostitution a problem whether we make it legal or illegal? Are there any studies that show whether forced prostitution/trafficking goes up or down with legalisation? >> "And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option" There are plenty of jobs people do because they are the only option. They are physically difficult, dangerous, and pay much less than prostitution. In the documentaries/articles I've read where this point is made it often comes out that the person could do another job but it pays less and they would rather do prostitution as it pays more. Although I do agree with your point about a basic income. I think that would solve a lot of societies problems. It would also be interesting to then see how many people stay in prostitution when they have no financial reason to do so.
    - capisce 12y ago
      >> Are there any studies that show whether forced prostitution/trafficking goes up or down with legalisation? The Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and regulated, is still one of the top destinations of human trafficking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#Human_trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands...
spingsprong 12y ago
With any new industry there's bound to be bugs in the system. Most other industries have laws regulating them going back decades or even over a century. You're not gonna get it perfect from day 1.
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Seems kind of funny to describe The Oldest Profession as a "new industry". Prostitution laws have a history much longer than one century.
unicornporn 12y ago
I really think that everybody here should see the documentary "Dreamworld: The Biggest Brothel" that is made inside the largest brothel in Europe. Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shv1FAxToHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shv1FAxToHM
jensen123 12y ago
Women get pregnant. Men do not. That means that, one way or another, men have to support women financially. Traditional marriage is one way, prostitution another. However, in our culture there seems to be a bias that marriage is somehow better than prostitution. I find that odd. Traditional monogamous marriage seems incredibly boring. The biggest problem with prostitution, I think, is STDs, because each prostitute has sex with so very many men. I wish there was some sort of solution somewhere between traditional marriage and prostitution. Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored?
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored? Then again, you see the proliferation of divorces and many married people end up having lovers on the side. So I'd say our culture is getting increasingly easy-bored. I think the main reason for this bias is that marriages in the past were primarily an economic construct, merging the wealth of two families, where the married couple were only the vehicle for binding the contract. This, plus of course the economic benefits of spawning and raising kids. You can see this today in parts of the world where people still do arranged marriages. Compared to prostitution, this would be like the difference between a cozy corporate job and freelancing in an unstable market. In the first case, you get insurance, health benefits, stable and predictable salary, and you expect to be employed for long time - so you and your family can make long-term plans. In the second case, you don't get any of that, and your main concern is whether you'll earn enough money now to last through an unpredictably-long period of time where there won't be any work for you to do - so you can't plan ahead at all.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
janezj 12y ago
After watching movie The Unknown Woman by Giuseppe Tormatore, I always associate prostitution as explotation of women, I just wish that there are happy girls enjoing its jobs. But there are also beasts seling their bodies to other beasts.

111 points by ca98am79 12y ago

forgotpasswd3x 12y ago

Why was the title changed from the OPs original title, which much better characterized the story?

jdmichal 12y ago
The title would normally be changed to "Welcome to Paradise", which is the article title. Due to the content, not sure if a mod will reduce it to just that...
- forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
  Right, which is why I believe the original title was more informative than the updated title. (Original title being: "Welcome to Paradise: inside the world of legalised prostitution", which I believe could have only been made more accurate to the story by adding "in Germany") IIRC, the reason for changing submission titles is to ensure clarity, and dissuade editorialization, however this submission was changed to a less clear title.
  - dang 12y ago
    We changed it to the doc title, but without the baity prefix.

lispm 12y ago

> When Germany legalised prostitution in 2002 it triggered an apparently unstoppable growth in the country’s sex industry. One needs to be careful when making judgements about what the causes were for this growth. One need to keep in mind that Germany has several strong driving forces for change in our society and around us. * economic collapse in former east europe * change in political and economic systems * open borders * a lot of poor and desperate people in Germany and in neighbor countries. * Many european countries further in the east are even worse in most ways: no jobs, no perspective, corruption, very little recovery, ... * Germany had an economic recovery during the last decade and has been able to control the effects of the world-wide financial crisis on its economy. * the Euro in Germany and west Europe remained stable. In those troubled country in the east, there is no Euro. Some smaller countries now joined the Eurozone. We had the reunification of east and west germany. 20 million people had a drastic change in life, with their economy collapsing, authorities gone, the political system changed, jobs gone, ... Some recovery happened in the last decade, but that was very tough for many people and dampened by a lot of money from mostly western parts of Germany. All borders to neighbor countries are now wide open. All the east european countries went through even harder economic times. The financial crisis made it even worse. High unemployment in neighbor countries, especially for young people, while unemployment in Germany was going down. Many people moved to west europe for work. Legal or not. Eastern neighbors all joined the EU, which for example now means that people can move freely and work freely in other countries. Thus it's not easy to compare it with other countries and it is not possible to think about prostitution independent from the other developments. The number of people in prostition is not just depending on the type of law. Germany has rich West Germany and an added East Germany. At its border it has countries with a lot of poor people, formely all communist. This difference in wealth, job opportunities, etc. creates enough opportunities which can be exploited. Thus we would have seen a lot increase in the sex business, whether we would have legalized it or not. Trying to control that with police and laws would have been very very difficult. There are open borders to all sides. Thinking that young women from eastern Europe would not been here, if laws were tougher is naive. We didn't open the borders to create new ones. I think it was a smart move to prevent people from going underground. Still it makes sense to look if changes to the laws etc. are necessary after more than a decade.

oakaz 12y ago
As I know the border of Germany is pretty strict. I hear lots of horror stories from not only well educated people, but also people write books, makes music, etc. Even well known singers can't get visa to give their concert in Germany sometimes. So how come unemployed people from poor neighbor countries can just go Germany and do prostution? It sounds realistic at first hear but thinking about the border officers in Germany, I think you kinda wanna think majority of the prostutes are not Germans.
- rtpg 12y ago
  Well, there is the Schengen Zone, meaning you can source a decent amount of people from some of Eastern Europe. Not taking a position on GP's thesis that most prostitutes come from poorer countries though.
  - lispm 12y ago
    The Schengen zone means that border controls are at the countries at its border. Everyone who enters the Schengen zone then can move freely to Germany without any controls (exception: flights from non-Schengen countries to Germany). Their are no real border control between the Schengen zone countries. The Schengen area are has 420 million people. That's like the US + Mexico, but in 26 countries. The US is closing its border to Mexico - Europe has opened up a lot of borders. But the EU is larger than the Schengen zone. Britain for example is not a part of the Schengen zone, but due to EU law everyone in Britain is free to move to Germany and legally allowed to work here. Then there are a lot of people in east Europe not in the EU. Many of them under a worse economic and political situation (Ukraine, ...). That motivates a lot of people...
- lispm 12y ago
  What you hear is wrong. German border controls are mostly non existent. In a physical way. Drive over the border and you are in Germany. No fence. No controls. Border controls are down to a minimum. Poland is next to us. No one in Poland needs a visa. There are no real border controls between Poland and us. The Czech are next to us. No one needs a visa. No real border controls. France is next to us. No real border controls. Nobody needs a visa. We even have the same currency. Everybody in the EU (505 million people) can work move and work everywhere (mostly). Nobody needs a visa. Even from countries where a visa is needed, moving to Germany and staying illegal is relatively easy. And so on.

Eliezer 12y ago

I wonder whether legislating a minimum rate paid for prostitution (e.g. 100 euros per hour), with violations criminal for the underpayer but not for the prostitute, would have resulted in a nicer-looking industry. In other words, whether it would have been practically possible to selectively legalize high-end sex work.

snitko 12y ago
So, you are essentially discriminating against ugly sex workers.
- jrockway 12y ago
  Kind of like how Hollywood discriminates against ugly actors?
nazgulnarsil 12y ago
This strategy has been tried with guns, i.e. create expensive hoops to jump through such that poor people can afford fewer guns. The additional violence from the blackmarket of gunrunning cheap guns to meet the demand probably offsets any gains.
capisce 12y ago
Or even better, pay them basic income - now women would no longer need to prostitute themselves out of desperation, and only the ones who really saw this as a lucrative career would choose it.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  Yeah, pay basic income then prices for everything goes up and you are back at sqiare1.
  - capisce 12y ago
    Source?

andrewstuart 12y ago

I can't remember a time when prostitution was illegal in Australia. It's hard to understand countries where it's not legal. Funny even that's it's an interesting topic.

forrestthewoods 12y ago
You really can't understand why it would be illegal? Even if you are radically opposed it should be pretty damn easy to come up with a long list of reasons as to why someone else might wish it to be illegal.
- jackvalentine 12y ago
  And then you compare those reasons to the reality of the situation, and the arguments for legality and you "(find it) hard to understand countries where it's not legal". He didn't say "I can't think of a list of reasons for it to be illegal".
- ObviousScience 12y ago
  Can you name a few that aren't just "sex is bad, so I'll legislate that" or "a woman shouldn't sleep around"?
  - capisce 12y ago
    From the article: "Sex trafficking statistics are frustratingly incomplete, but a recent report estimated the number of victims in Europe at 270,000." We accept this form of modern slavery? "Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population." There's a good argument against legalization.
    - guruz 12y ago
      Although it seems to me like making it illegal is as futile as the war on durgs. Legalizing and controlling makes more sense to me.

smegel 12y ago

The reality is prostition helps many young girls in their early 20s escape poverty and set themselves up for life. They can easily earn 100-200k a year, and after 2-3 years buy a house and move onto other occupations or start a family. Ones that stay on beyond that do so out of desperation or laziness, a tiny minority are actually forced to stay in the industry against their will. People who critize this need to understand the options for women from places of abject poverty are not great either.

allegory 12y ago
This. I had a friend who got herself through a medicine degree in the UK via prostitution. Her parents' income was too high to get a grant and good loan but they couldn't help her because of the chains of debt. She told them she was working in Dominos branch. She's a surgical reg now, happily married for over 10 years with two children so did ok out of it and wasn't harmed in any way and says she quite enjoyed it.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  That's a pretty rare story though. It could have very easily ended up with her either dead or pushed to use drugs. Think of her as the lucky exception in a long long string of girls that tried the same thing and that ended up being eaten by 'the life'. I have not one but two nieces that ended up like that and where once they were bright and healthy girls they are now shadows.
  - allegory 12y ago
    I think it depends how and who markets you. If you're not in control of it, then it's not going to end well.
  - icecreampain 12y ago
    sigh It COULD have ended up with her dead or pushed to use drugs. It COULD also have ended up with her as the President of the World and the first person on Pluto. It COULD also have ended up with her turning into Jesus and killing people left and right. But it didn't. What happened: the reality (which you seem so very interested in avoiding) is that she ended up with a job, house and family. Rather than thinking of her as the lucky exception, why not think of her as an example of a prositute that got herself a job, house and family, and your two nieces as examples of prositutes that got fucked up? Isn't that a far more objective, less emotionally-based statement than the one you made?

joshfraser 12y ago

For me, it comes down to a really simple principle: Your body, your rules. Why should some people get to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies? Our responsibility as a society is to figure out how to make it as safe as possible for the people who find them in the unfortunate situation where prostitution looks like the best option. Edited to be gender neutral.

capisce 12y ago
Yes - your body, your rules, but in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that. And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option, maybe we could introduce basic income so that many of them would not have to consider this option in the first place. I would say that's our responsibility as a society.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  >> "in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that" But isn't forced prostitution a problem whether we make it legal or illegal? Are there any studies that show whether forced prostitution/trafficking goes up or down with legalisation? >> "And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option" There are plenty of jobs people do because they are the only option. They are physically difficult, dangerous, and pay much less than prostitution. In the documentaries/articles I've read where this point is made it often comes out that the person could do another job but it pays less and they would rather do prostitution as it pays more. Although I do agree with your point about a basic income. I think that would solve a lot of societies problems. It would also be interesting to then see how many people stay in prostitution when they have no financial reason to do so.
  - capisce 12y ago
    >> Are there any studies that show whether forced prostitution/trafficking goes up or down with legalisation? The Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and regulated, is still one of the top destinations of human trafficking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#Human_trafficking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands...

spingsprong 12y ago

With any new industry there's bound to be bugs in the system. Most other industries have laws regulating them going back decades or even over a century. You're not gonna get it perfect from day 1.

thaumasiotes 12y ago
Seems kind of funny to describe The Oldest Profession as a "new industry". Prostitution laws have a history much longer than one century.

unicornporn 12y ago

I really think that everybody here should see the documentary "Dreamworld: The Biggest Brothel" that is made inside the largest brothel in Europe. Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shv1FAxToHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shv1FAxToHM

jensen123 12y ago

Women get pregnant. Men do not. That means that, one way or another, men have to support women financially. Traditional marriage is one way, prostitution another. However, in our culture there seems to be a bias that marriage is somehow better than prostitution. I find that odd. Traditional monogamous marriage seems incredibly boring. The biggest problem with prostitution, I think, is STDs, because each prostitute has sex with so very many men. I wish there was some sort of solution somewhere between traditional marriage and prostitution. Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored?

TeMPOraL 12y ago
> Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored? Then again, you see the proliferation of divorces and many married people end up having lovers on the side. So I'd say our culture is getting increasingly easy-bored. I think the main reason for this bias is that marriages in the past were primarily an economic construct, merging the wealth of two families, where the married couple were only the vehicle for binding the contract. This, plus of course the economic benefits of spawning and raising kids. You can see this today in parts of the world where people still do arranged marriages. Compared to prostitution, this would be like the difference between a cozy corporate job and freelancing in an unstable market. In the first case, you get insurance, health benefits, stable and predictable salary, and you expect to be employed for long time - so you and your family can make long-term plans. In the second case, you don't get any of that, and your main concern is whether you'll earn enough money now to last through an unpredictably-long period of time where there won't be any work for you to do - so you can't plan ahead at all.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

janezj 12y ago

After watching movie The Unknown Woman by Giuseppe Tormatore, I always associate prostitution as explotation of women, I just wish that there are happy girls enjoing its jobs. But there are also beasts seling their bodies to other beasts.