7 ms·

Dark net drug markets kept alive by great customer service

81 points by rosser 12y ago

dang 12y ago
Url changed from http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/08/dark-net-drug-markets-kept-alive-by-great-customer-service/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/08/dark-net-drug-mar..., which points to this.
userbinator 12y ago
and are accessed using a special browser called "Tor" Tor is a browser now?
- djent 12y ago
  It's a browser bundle. They were close.
  - bramgg 12y ago
    Tor isn't a browser. The Tor Browser Bundle is just the most used application that uses Tor. Not that it really matters though, I doubt that line caused any confusion.
  - chrisbennet 12y ago
    Your commented helped me. I'd heard of Tor of course but I didn't know what the user interface was. When the article said that it used a Tor browser I didn't know any better.
sixQuarks 12y ago
How is it that these drugs make it through international mail? Doesn't the US government have ways to detect drugs that are shipped in this manner?
- gerbal 12y ago
  I'd expect it's a question of volume. The USPS and Customs do inspect international mail, however there is probably just so much of it that most contraband sneaks under the radar.
  - dageshi 12y ago
    Pretty sure it is. I know there's a pretty substantial trade in cuban cigars entering the US, there are plenty of websites based out of Hong Kong and Switzerland who'll send cubans into the US. Again customer service is key. If the cigars don't arrive within a certain timeframe the vendors will send again, if it's stopped again they'll give you your money back. The vast majority do seem to make it through though although some odd things do happen, some packages appear to have been held up in customs for literally years before they're released, it's not unusual to hear stories of people receiving orders that they already received (because they were shipped a second time and those got through) a couple of years after the initial order. You've got to suspect that might be an attempt to damage the companies selling them economically by making them re-send to destroy their margins. But the trade still thrives, not just for the US but also for high tax countries ordering from abroad is a much cheaper and practical option.
- llllllllllll 12y ago
  International shipping is much riskier, so people are usually advised to only order domestically. Certain countries are known for stringently checking international packages -- Australia is at the top of the list, though the US is tough too. Good packaging consists of multiple layers of vacuum seal and some kind of visual barrier. Fake names, vacant addresses, no return address, trying to mask smells with coffee/foods, etc. are all generally thought to be criteria for 'flagging' a package for more careful review (drug dogs, x-ray machines).
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Many of my coworkers order tons of crap of things like aliexpress or deal extreme and those packages are substantially never opened in customs - they may be checked by sniffer dogs, but I doubt it.
Exenith 12y ago
As far as I'm concerned, all of these drug markets are an absolutely fucking wonderful thing for society. Even if you think drugs should be illegal, incredibly violent cartels still exist. Markets like Silk Road can take all their power away. 100,000 people have died so far in the 8-year Mexican Drug War. How would you like if that number turned into 0 without any need for political intervention? This is what Ross Ulbricht described his goal as on LinkedIn: "I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and aggression amongst mankind." Is that clear enough? The guy studied organic solar cells and EuO thin-film crystals for 5 years as a grad student, describing his goal then as to expand the frontier of human knowledge. Do you think a person like that would suddenly plunge himself into a crazy get-rich scheme? Let's be honest here: that kind of person meticulously plans these kind of things, and they do it ultimately to help the world in an abstract way -- not constantly empathetic of each individual person, but ultimately concerned with the total human condition.
- grimtrigger 12y ago
  Why would these markets take any power from the cartels? Don't they give the cartels a larger consumer base to sell to?
  - unchocked 12y ago
    They make it impossible for cartels to exclude competition, in the same way they make it (theoretically) impossible for governments to prosecute distribution.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - aianus 12y ago
      Unfortunately you still need the cartels to get the drugs into the US which is where they make most of their money anyways. I imagine parcels from Colombia, Peru, or Afghanistan are not likely to fly under the radar.
unchocked 12y ago
This is a breeding pool for techniques that are resistant to state security measures. Fed would have been smart to leave SR 1.0 up as it had dominated that environment and would have suppressed "evolution".
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
zo1 12y ago
I often posited/mused that one of the main reasons hard drugs haven't been legalized yet is that there is very little variety in them. Let me elaborate a little. With alcohol, there are hundreds/thousands of different flavors/types/process/names/combinations. But, with most of the hard drugs, it's pretty much "a chemical". That's it, nothing to it. No "Alabama Whiskey" or "Russian Vodka No 5." to make it into a giant favor-winning game. Now, I don't know how the state of such a product range would change if it were legalized. Who knows, they might even come up with ingenious ways to spice things up without increasing dosages. Flavors, combinations, negative-effect suppressants, whatever. Or how about people come up with ingenious places/ways to take drugs that prevent addiction, or simply enhance the setting. I don't know. What I do know is that we should let people use/do what they want to their bodies. Will this have negative effects? Sure, they might, they might not. Personal choice trumps any sort of wide/vague societal benefits, otherwise society is just a bunch of tyrants. As long as what individuals do doesn't physically harm anyone, then they should be allowed to do it.
- bronbron 12y ago
  > I don't know. What I do know is that we should let people use/do what they want to their bodies. Will this have negative effects? Sure, they might, they might not. Personal choice trumps any sort of wide/vague societal benefits, otherwise society is just a bunch of tyrants. As long as what individuals do doesn't physically harm anyone, then they should be allowed to do it. Eh, I dunno. I can see both sides of it. I worry that heroin is basically an advertiser's wet dream and you'd see all sorts of shady shit encouraging addiction. On the other hand we've already semi-successfully navigated those waters with tobacco. But then, I don't see people on the street in the bronx willing to blow someone for a cigarette. Maybe that's because it's legal. I dunno. Seems like something we should investigate before making policy decisions. There're a lot of factors to be considered and "personal choice trumps all" is just as silly of an axiom as the opposite. There's a plethora of disallowed personal choices that the vast majority of people would agree are net positives for society, if only because "doesn't harm anyone else" is a very gray area.
  - ObviousScience 12y ago
bluedino 12y ago
How are you guaranteed to actually receive your $5,000 worth of drug XYZ while purchasing from an anonymous network? What if the guy mails you a box of baking soda?
- cmdrfred 12y ago
  I believe the system is sort of like Ebay, do that too many times and people will leave negative reviews and future buyers will not do business with you.
- zo1 12y ago
  Reputation. People don't necessarily just go out and buy $5000 worth of goods from an unknown seller. They start small, with a value they're willing to lose. Say $20. Over time, the seller consistently delivers the goods requested, and so their trust in the seller increases. You can imagine that with a consistent system, this reputation can be transmitted/communicated to new parties. Think EBay for a clear example. Perhaps not the best of analogies, as EBay has money back guarantees/insurance, etc. But as long as drugs remain in the dark underbelly of government-hate, don't expect much protection from conventional institutions.
aburan28 12y ago
In my experience the people that I know that are on "safe" drugs such as Prozac, Adderall, Ritalin, Xanax are the ones having the tougher problem with addiction compared to the people I have met that have used illicit drugs such as Heroin. Companies like Shire Pharmaceuticals selling amphetamines to kids are no better for society than your average heroin dealer. I mean atleast the heroin dealer is honest with the fact that the drug he is selling is absolutely going to have an addictive effect whereas giving kids speed or even methamphetamine (prescription brand Desoxyn in the pharma world) to treat ADHD is somehow a more noble profession.

81 points by rosser 12y ago

dang 12y ago

Url changed from http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/08/dark-net-drug-markets-kept-alive-by-great-customer-service/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/08/dark-net-drug-mar..., which points to this.

userbinator 12y ago

and are accessed using a special browser called "Tor" Tor is a browser now?

djent 12y ago
It's a browser bundle. They were close.
- bramgg 12y ago
  Tor isn't a browser. The Tor Browser Bundle is just the most used application that uses Tor. Not that it really matters though, I doubt that line caused any confusion.
- chrisbennet 12y ago
  Your commented helped me. I'd heard of Tor of course but I didn't know what the user interface was. When the article said that it used a Tor browser I didn't know any better.

sixQuarks 12y ago

How is it that these drugs make it through international mail? Doesn't the US government have ways to detect drugs that are shipped in this manner?

gerbal 12y ago
I'd expect it's a question of volume. The USPS and Customs do inspect international mail, however there is probably just so much of it that most contraband sneaks under the radar.
- dageshi 12y ago
  Pretty sure it is. I know there's a pretty substantial trade in cuban cigars entering the US, there are plenty of websites based out of Hong Kong and Switzerland who'll send cubans into the US. Again customer service is key. If the cigars don't arrive within a certain timeframe the vendors will send again, if it's stopped again they'll give you your money back. The vast majority do seem to make it through though although some odd things do happen, some packages appear to have been held up in customs for literally years before they're released, it's not unusual to hear stories of people receiving orders that they already received (because they were shipped a second time and those got through) a couple of years after the initial order. You've got to suspect that might be an attempt to damage the companies selling them economically by making them re-send to destroy their margins. But the trade still thrives, not just for the US but also for high tax countries ordering from abroad is a much cheaper and practical option.
llllllllllll 12y ago
International shipping is much riskier, so people are usually advised to only order domestically. Certain countries are known for stringently checking international packages -- Australia is at the top of the list, though the US is tough too. Good packaging consists of multiple layers of vacuum seal and some kind of visual barrier. Fake names, vacant addresses, no return address, trying to mask smells with coffee/foods, etc. are all generally thought to be criteria for 'flagging' a package for more careful review (drug dogs, x-ray machines).
tomjen3 12y ago
Many of my coworkers order tons of crap of things like aliexpress or deal extreme and those packages are substantially never opened in customs - they may be checked by sniffer dogs, but I doubt it.

Exenith 12y ago

As far as I'm concerned, all of these drug markets are an absolutely fucking wonderful thing for society. Even if you think drugs should be illegal, incredibly violent cartels still exist. Markets like Silk Road can take all their power away. 100,000 people have died so far in the 8-year Mexican Drug War. How would you like if that number turned into 0 without any need for political intervention? This is what Ross Ulbricht described his goal as on LinkedIn: "I want to use economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and aggression amongst mankind." Is that clear enough? The guy studied organic solar cells and EuO thin-film crystals for 5 years as a grad student, describing his goal then as to expand the frontier of human knowledge. Do you think a person like that would suddenly plunge himself into a crazy get-rich scheme? Let's be honest here: that kind of person meticulously plans these kind of things, and they do it ultimately to help the world in an abstract way -- not constantly empathetic of each individual person, but ultimately concerned with the total human condition.

grimtrigger 12y ago
Why would these markets take any power from the cartels? Don't they give the cartels a larger consumer base to sell to?
- unchocked 12y ago
  They make it impossible for cartels to exclude competition, in the same way they make it (theoretically) impossible for governments to prosecute distribution.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - aianus 12y ago
    Unfortunately you still need the cartels to get the drugs into the US which is where they make most of their money anyways. I imagine parcels from Colombia, Peru, or Afghanistan are not likely to fly under the radar.

unchocked 12y ago

This is a breeding pool for techniques that are resistant to state security measures. Fed would have been smart to leave SR 1.0 up as it had dominated that environment and would have suppressed "evolution".

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

zo1 12y ago

I often posited/mused that one of the main reasons hard drugs haven't been legalized yet is that there is very little variety in them. Let me elaborate a little. With alcohol, there are hundreds/thousands of different flavors/types/process/names/combinations. But, with most of the hard drugs, it's pretty much "a chemical". That's it, nothing to it. No "Alabama Whiskey" or "Russian Vodka No 5." to make it into a giant favor-winning game. Now, I don't know how the state of such a product range would change if it were legalized. Who knows, they might even come up with ingenious ways to spice things up without increasing dosages. Flavors, combinations, negative-effect suppressants, whatever. Or how about people come up with ingenious places/ways to take drugs that prevent addiction, or simply enhance the setting. I don't know. What I do know is that we should let people use/do what they want to their bodies. Will this have negative effects? Sure, they might, they might not. Personal choice trumps any sort of wide/vague societal benefits, otherwise society is just a bunch of tyrants. As long as what individuals do doesn't physically harm anyone, then they should be allowed to do it.

bronbron 12y ago
> I don't know. What I do know is that we should let people use/do what they want to their bodies. Will this have negative effects? Sure, they might, they might not. Personal choice trumps any sort of wide/vague societal benefits, otherwise society is just a bunch of tyrants. As long as what individuals do doesn't physically harm anyone, then they should be allowed to do it. Eh, I dunno. I can see both sides of it. I worry that heroin is basically an advertiser's wet dream and you'd see all sorts of shady shit encouraging addiction. On the other hand we've already semi-successfully navigated those waters with tobacco. But then, I don't see people on the street in the bronx willing to blow someone for a cigarette. Maybe that's because it's legal. I dunno. Seems like something we should investigate before making policy decisions. There're a lot of factors to be considered and "personal choice trumps all" is just as silly of an axiom as the opposite. There's a plethora of disallowed personal choices that the vast majority of people would agree are net positives for society, if only because "doesn't harm anyone else" is a very gray area.
- ObviousScience 12y ago

bluedino 12y ago

How are you guaranteed to actually receive your $5,000 worth of drug XYZ while purchasing from an anonymous network? What if the guy mails you a box of baking soda?

cmdrfred 12y ago
I believe the system is sort of like Ebay, do that too many times and people will leave negative reviews and future buyers will not do business with you.
zo1 12y ago
Reputation. People don't necessarily just go out and buy $5000 worth of goods from an unknown seller. They start small, with a value they're willing to lose. Say $20. Over time, the seller consistently delivers the goods requested, and so their trust in the seller increases. You can imagine that with a consistent system, this reputation can be transmitted/communicated to new parties. Think EBay for a clear example. Perhaps not the best of analogies, as EBay has money back guarantees/insurance, etc. But as long as drugs remain in the dark underbelly of government-hate, don't expect much protection from conventional institutions.

aburan28 12y ago

In my experience the people that I know that are on "safe" drugs such as Prozac, Adderall, Ritalin, Xanax are the ones having the tougher problem with addiction compared to the people I have met that have used illicit drugs such as Heroin. Companies like Shire Pharmaceuticals selling amphetamines to kids are no better for society than your average heroin dealer. I mean atleast the heroin dealer is honest with the fact that the drug he is selling is absolutely going to have an addictive effect whereas giving kids speed or even methamphetamine (prescription brand Desoxyn in the pharma world) to treat ADHD is somehow a more noble profession.