5 ms·

i think it's clear that race, as referred to in socioeconomic contexts, is more of a class indicator than a marker of ethnicity. white == rich, educated, priv

by ashishk 17y ago

i think it's clear that race, as referred to in socioeconomic contexts, is more of a class indicator than a marker of ethnicity. white == rich, educated, privileged. asian == (newly) rich, educated, privileged hence asian == white

chaosmachine 17y ago
Aside from that, Asians have relatively light skin. I think the psychological factors that go along with having dark or light skin are at least as important in this equation.
- cwan 17y ago
  Seriously? They cite Indians as well (ie those from India) and they definitely don't have light skin - nor do many ethnic Chinese for that matter - depending where in China you're from). Being ethnically Chinese, it is somewhat insulting to be arbitrarily grouped in with being "White" in order to make some twisted social policy argument. Why don't people say they want more Blacks and Hispanics in universities (presumably those are the targeted underrepresented groups). Or does not classifying Asians as essentially "White" mean that this undermines the whole thesis for affirmative action to correct racial prejudice?
  - chaosmachine 17y ago
    It's been repeatedly shown that lighter skin is equated with higher status, even within Asian and Indian communities. Skin color hierarchies have appeared just as prominently in other races and ethnicities. In Japan, members of the upper class have lighter skin tones than do members of the middle or lower classes; the author of this study concludes that “social selection for light skin color has had some genetic effect” in a nation that was genetically isolated for almost 1500 years (Hulse 1967, quotation in abstract). According to an ancient Japanese proverb, “white skin makes up for seven defects” (quoted in Wagatsuma 1968: 129). In India, “this preference for light-skinned spouses can be easily verified by the matrimonial columns of some of the Hindu dailies. Among the most desirable traits a bride can have are virginity and light skin, as evidenced by those placing ads.” (Hall 1995: 179). - Hochschild, J. L., Weaver, V. and Burch, T, 2004. "Effects of Skin Color Bias in SES on Political Attitudes and Activities" http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/5/9/3/4/pages59347/p59347-5.php http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/... Basically, if you don't think skin color plays a significant role in what people consider a minority, you're just ignoring the evidence.
    - cwan 17y ago
      This doesn't explain how you could confuse the darker skin of an Indian (who is actually from India) with that of an actual (sounds odd when I say that) White person. I am also darker than most white people and I am ethnically Chinese. If that's what you're saying, then Indians should have lower status than Chinese people/hispanics/even some Blacks. Unless you are saying that it's ok to generalize all Chinese people and Indians as an "average" (which frankly, I think is insulting to everyone). The article isn't talking about prejudice within races, it is talking about classifications between races and why it is odd to consider Asians (Indian and Chinese - not just the lighter ones) as "White".
iamwil 17y ago
This was actually never clear to me. It's the first time I've heard it expressed that way. I had always thought it was because Asian Americans have had a tough time having a voice as a unified minority group, and hence, there was no cultural identity clearly different (when taken as a group) from mainstream America when it came to product consumption. And hence, that's why Asians get lumped into the White category in demographics.
- ashishk 17y ago
  Yeah it's a bit tricky. A few points to chew on. Race is a social construct. So it might have started as a ethnic marker, but it's constantly evolving. As it stands now, some say that your class actually defines your race. For example, let's look at your point: Asian Americans have had a tough time...when it came to product consumption I would ask, what do Asian Americans buy? Besides specific ethnic foods, the majority of the product consumption (clothes, music, jewelry, cars, houses, technology) are what general well-to-do Americans would buy. And, ethnically speaking, we all know who wears American Eagle and Banana Republic.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    Race is a social construct. No it isn't. The different races are well defined statistical clusters. If you do a cluster analysis of human genotypes or phenotypes (but give it no racial information), the computer will figure out races for you. And you'll discover the computer agrees with human observers most of the time.
    - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
      Citation needed. I was under the impression that Africans had more genetic variety between them than they do when compared with the rest of the world. I'm also intrigued as to what this computer would make of Australian aborigines which apparently are genetically on the far side of Africans from Asians despite both being "black".
    - cglee 17y ago
sethg 17y ago
Oprah Winfrey is rich, educated, and privileged, but she's not white.
_debug_ 17y ago
Very true. I think another point that was missed / omitted by the author is that Asians want to assimilate, while Blacks have history of celebrating their separate identity. Asians start with a love for capitalism and hard work and all the Ayn Rand-ish stuff (referred to in a positive sense here). Minority, hence, refers to those who choose to/really are, quite different from the majority. (BTW, Kal Penn, whether he realizes it or not, is to brownies what Obama is to Black people, and has a natural career in politics; it's there for him to take.)

by ashishk 17y ago

chaosmachine 17y ago

Aside from that, Asians have relatively light skin. I think the psychological factors that go along with having dark or light skin are at least as important in this equation.

cwan 17y ago
Seriously? They cite Indians as well (ie those from India) and they definitely don't have light skin - nor do many ethnic Chinese for that matter - depending where in China you're from). Being ethnically Chinese, it is somewhat insulting to be arbitrarily grouped in with being "White" in order to make some twisted social policy argument. Why don't people say they want more Blacks and Hispanics in universities (presumably those are the targeted underrepresented groups). Or does not classifying Asians as essentially "White" mean that this undermines the whole thesis for affirmative action to correct racial prejudice?
- chaosmachine 17y ago
  It's been repeatedly shown that lighter skin is equated with higher status, even within Asian and Indian communities. Skin color hierarchies have appeared just as prominently in other races and ethnicities. In Japan, members of the upper class have lighter skin tones than do members of the middle or lower classes; the author of this study concludes that “social selection for light skin color has had some genetic effect” in a nation that was genetically isolated for almost 1500 years (Hulse 1967, quotation in abstract). According to an ancient Japanese proverb, “white skin makes up for seven defects” (quoted in Wagatsuma 1968: 129). In India, “this preference for light-skinned spouses can be easily verified by the matrimonial columns of some of the Hindu dailies. Among the most desirable traits a bride can have are virginity and light skin, as evidenced by those placing ads.” (Hall 1995: 179). - Hochschild, J. L., Weaver, V. and Burch, T, 2004. "Effects of Skin Color Bias in SES on Political Attitudes and Activities" http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/5/9/3/4/pages59347/p59347-5.php http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/... Basically, if you don't think skin color plays a significant role in what people consider a minority, you're just ignoring the evidence.
  - cwan 17y ago
    This doesn't explain how you could confuse the darker skin of an Indian (who is actually from India) with that of an actual (sounds odd when I say that) White person. I am also darker than most white people and I am ethnically Chinese. If that's what you're saying, then Indians should have lower status than Chinese people/hispanics/even some Blacks. Unless you are saying that it's ok to generalize all Chinese people and Indians as an "average" (which frankly, I think is insulting to everyone). The article isn't talking about prejudice within races, it is talking about classifications between races and why it is odd to consider Asians (Indian and Chinese - not just the lighter ones) as "White".

iamwil 17y ago

This was actually never clear to me. It's the first time I've heard it expressed that way. I had always thought it was because Asian Americans have had a tough time having a voice as a unified minority group, and hence, there was no cultural identity clearly different (when taken as a group) from mainstream America when it came to product consumption. And hence, that's why Asians get lumped into the White category in demographics.

ashishk 17y ago
Yeah it's a bit tricky. A few points to chew on. Race is a social construct. So it might have started as a ethnic marker, but it's constantly evolving. As it stands now, some say that your class actually defines your race. For example, let's look at your point: Asian Americans have had a tough time...when it came to product consumption I would ask, what do Asian Americans buy? Besides specific ethnic foods, the majority of the product consumption (clothes, music, jewelry, cars, houses, technology) are what general well-to-do Americans would buy. And, ethnically speaking, we all know who wears American Eagle and Banana Republic.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  Race is a social construct. No it isn't. The different races are well defined statistical clusters. If you do a cluster analysis of human genotypes or phenotypes (but give it no racial information), the computer will figure out races for you. And you'll discover the computer agrees with human observers most of the time.
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    Citation needed. I was under the impression that Africans had more genetic variety between them than they do when compared with the rest of the world. I'm also intrigued as to what this computer would make of Australian aborigines which apparently are genetically on the far side of Africans from Asians despite both being "black".
  - cglee 17y ago

sethg 17y ago

Oprah Winfrey is rich, educated, and privileged, but she's not white.

_debug_ 17y ago

Very true. I think another point that was missed / omitted by the author is that Asians want to assimilate, while Blacks have history of celebrating their separate identity. Asians start with a love for capitalism and hard work and all the Ayn Rand-ish stuff (referred to in a positive sense here). Minority, hence, refers to those who choose to/really are, quite different from the majority. (BTW, Kal Penn, whether he realizes it or not, is to brownies what Obama is to Black people, and has a natural career in politics; it's there for him to take.)