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I didn't use the term "work permit" but I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..." The laws around digital nomads, to

by gregjor 12y ago

I didn't use the term "work permit" but I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..." The laws around digital nomads, to say nothing of enforcement, have never been clear in Thailand. Bans on foreigners working in any country are intended to prevent foreigners taking jobs away from locals. Digital nomads don't do that. As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand: http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/ http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-offici... You still need a visa, of course.

stephenr 12y ago
> I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..." In context, you are clearly talking about working for local companies. In countries like Thailand, it's illegal to work in any way (even volunteering falls into this category in Thailand) without a valid visa and work permit. > have never been clear in Thailand That's disingenuous at best. Its never been "ideal" but it's always been clear - if you want to work, you need a visa + work permit. That people working "online" for foreign entities have largely slipped through the cracks is irrelevant. Speeding isn't legal or "unclear" just because you don't get caught every time. > this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand: Since i first started looking at the options for working in Thailand about 2 1/2 years ago (and moved here ~ 2 years ago) I've read numerous articles about these announcements from provincial immigration staff, only to have them either "clarified" to mean something different, or outright denied as being incorrect.
- true_religion 12y ago
  So lets say you are a manager for a normal 9-to-5 company, and head to Thailand on vacation. If you receive a phone call from work would that technically be illegal since you are doing your paid work from a thai beach?
  - stephenr 12y ago
    I get that you are trying to push the example to the extreme, but it's hardly the same situation. For a more realistic example: it is perfectly legal for a foreigner to come to Thailand on a business visa (without a work permit) for the purpose of meetings. There is even a specific 3 year (vs regular 1 year) business visa that is specifically designed for this situation (it cannot be used to get a work permit).
    - capisce 12y ago
      Wouldn't Thailand lose out by not allowing digital nomads to work there? What they contribute to the economy by staying there they would otherwise be forced to spend in a different country. So what is the law saying that you're not allowed to perform any "work" while you're in the country supposed to achieve, assuming you are not taking any jobs from locals?
      - stephenr 12y ago
        The reality is more likely simply history - the Thai immigration system hasn't caught up with the 21st century. The "traditional" situation is evident in other things too - for a marriage visa, there is a means test ($/month income or $$ in a bank account) - the amount required is vastly more for foreign men (marrying thai women) than it is for women (marrying thai men). In terms of a theoretical "this is intentional" answer - I don't know, because I don't actually know what the average "digital nomad" would spend large amounts of money on - I'm living basically as a resident, I haven't left the country in 9 months, we have a car, imported our dog, etc.
        capisce 12y ago
        So in this case, what's wrong with breaking this law if it doesn't hurt anyone and is actually _good_ for the country's economy to do so?
- gregjor 12y ago
  You are right that any kind of work in Thailand, including volunteer work, requires a work permit. But you are leaving out the big gray area in Thailand between the law and what actually happens. That gray area is small or non-existent in America or Europe. In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12), and a receipt to show you paid in case you get stopped in the next 24 hours. In Thailand there are numerous digital nomad get-togethers and communities and co-working spaces full of farang with their laptops, operating openly. The many language schools routinely employ part-time teachers who don't have proper visas and work permits. As an American I've been trained to obey the law, and I understand that breaking the law leads to well-defined penalties (unless I'm a banker or a politician). Thais, on the other hand, treat the law (and road markings) as suggestions, with penalties that have flexible and often on-the-spot enforcement denominated in baht. So while you are right about what the law says, the reality of how it's interpreted and enforced are more important in Thailand.
  - stephenr 12y ago
    I'm well aware that many laws are not enforced well if at all in Thailand, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Generalising about 70 million people as if they are all the same isn't a great way to identify as anything other than a middle-aged farrang who wants a young brown girl(s) in his bed.
    - gregjor 12y ago
      Wow, great ad hominem attack. I didn't say the laws don't exist -- I acknowledged that. How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat says something about you. That wasn't part of anything I wrote. If anyone wants to read more of this kind of thing there's an entire forum for know-it-all expat jerks called ThaiVisa.com. Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
      - 12y ago
hackerboos 12y ago
>As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand That was one officer in Chiang Mai and he's been corrected since.

by gregjor 12y ago

stephenr 12y ago

> I did write "You won’t legally be allowed to work in the countries you travel to..." In context, you are clearly talking about working for local companies. In countries like Thailand, it's illegal to work in any way (even volunteering falls into this category in Thailand) without a valid visa and work permit. > have never been clear in Thailand That's disingenuous at best. Its never been "ideal" but it's always been clear - if you want to work, you need a visa + work permit. That people working "online" for foreign entities have largely slipped through the cracks is irrelevant. Speeding isn't legal or "unclear" just because you don't get caught every time. > this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand: Since i first started looking at the options for working in Thailand about 2 1/2 years ago (and moved here ~ 2 years ago) I've read numerous articles about these announcements from provincial immigration staff, only to have them either "clarified" to mean something different, or outright denied as being incorrect.

true_religion 12y ago
So lets say you are a manager for a normal 9-to-5 company, and head to Thailand on vacation. If you receive a phone call from work would that technically be illegal since you are doing your paid work from a thai beach?
- stephenr 12y ago
  I get that you are trying to push the example to the extreme, but it's hardly the same situation. For a more realistic example: it is perfectly legal for a foreigner to come to Thailand on a business visa (without a work permit) for the purpose of meetings. There is even a specific 3 year (vs regular 1 year) business visa that is specifically designed for this situation (it cannot be used to get a work permit).
  - capisce 12y ago
    Wouldn't Thailand lose out by not allowing digital nomads to work there? What they contribute to the economy by staying there they would otherwise be forced to spend in a different country. So what is the law saying that you're not allowed to perform any "work" while you're in the country supposed to achieve, assuming you are not taking any jobs from locals?
    - stephenr 12y ago
      The reality is more likely simply history - the Thai immigration system hasn't caught up with the 21st century. The "traditional" situation is evident in other things too - for a marriage visa, there is a means test ($/month income or $$ in a bank account) - the amount required is vastly more for foreign men (marrying thai women) than it is for women (marrying thai men). In terms of a theoretical "this is intentional" answer - I don't know, because I don't actually know what the average "digital nomad" would spend large amounts of money on - I'm living basically as a resident, I haven't left the country in 9 months, we have a car, imported our dog, etc.
      - capisce 12y ago
        So in this case, what's wrong with breaking this law if it doesn't hurt anyone and is actually _good_ for the country's economy to do so?
gregjor 12y ago
You are right that any kind of work in Thailand, including volunteer work, requires a work permit. But you are leaving out the big gray area in Thailand between the law and what actually happens. That gray area is small or non-existent in America or Europe. In Thailand pornography and sex toys and prostitution are all illegal, but visibly sold on the main tourist streets. In Thailand driving without a license will get you a small fine ($6 to $12), and a receipt to show you paid in case you get stopped in the next 24 hours. In Thailand there are numerous digital nomad get-togethers and communities and co-working spaces full of farang with their laptops, operating openly. The many language schools routinely employ part-time teachers who don't have proper visas and work permits. As an American I've been trained to obey the law, and I understand that breaking the law leads to well-defined penalties (unless I'm a banker or a politician). Thais, on the other hand, treat the law (and road markings) as suggestions, with penalties that have flexible and often on-the-spot enforcement denominated in baht. So while you are right about what the law says, the reality of how it's interpreted and enforced are more important in Thailand.
- stephenr 12y ago
  I'm well aware that many laws are not enforced well if at all in Thailand, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Generalising about 70 million people as if they are all the same isn't a great way to identify as anything other than a middle-aged farrang who wants a young brown girl(s) in his bed.
  - gregjor 12y ago
    Wow, great ad hominem attack. I didn't say the laws don't exist -- I acknowledged that. How you went from my observations of life in Thailand to calling me a sexpat says something about you. That wasn't part of anything I wrote. If anyone wants to read more of this kind of thing there's an entire forum for know-it-all expat jerks called ThaiVisa.com. Maybe I'm generalizing about the Thai attitude about the law, but you can observe it every day all over Thailand. It's no more a generalization than saying Thais like spicy food.
    - 12y ago

hackerboos 12y ago

>As it turns out just this week the Thai government decided it's OK for digital nomads to work in Thailand That was one officer in Chiang Mai and he's been corrected since.