6 ms·

The bigger story there is not that Brazil banned Secret, but that Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device. That Or

The bigger story there is not that Brazil banned Secret, but that Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device. That Orwellian power is the truly terrifying story there. And yes, personally, I've been aware for a while that they can do that, but I bet the vast majority of people don't know that. When will these companies learn that "if you build it (the infrastructure for censorship/surveillance), they (the governments) will come"? It's inevitable, and they should know better by now.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago
That Orwellian power is the truly terrifying story there. Only if you somehow consider the app store and mobile infrastructure a public good, which is most certainly is not. There are open source/decentralized options that you are free to use.
- sp332 12y ago
  Google doesn't have to literally be the government to wield power that only a government (or not even a government) should have.
  - mpyne 12y ago
    At the same time, you don't generally get a choice about what laws are in effect in the land you live in, but you do get to choose whether to buy Google or Apple products and partake of their app stores, or whether to go F/OSS and keep your freedom.
- tedks 12y ago
  I consider my phone to be my property. Typically, other people or corporations can't make changes to my property without my permission. I guess by "mobile infrastructure" you can extend that to "every phone," in which case why not remotely remove programs from PCs as well? Why not just say outright that the coalition of your local government plus Apple/Microsoft own your computer, rather than you? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and advocating free software, or openly advocating for autocratic computer systems management. (This is of course what RMS has been saying for literally decades, but for the people on HN who disagree with RMS, ... told you so.)
  - blazingfrog2 12y ago
    > other people or corporations can't make changes to my property without my permission. IANAL but it seems you have given permission: Notwithstanding any other provision of this Agreement, Apple and its principals reserve the right to change, suspend, remove, or disable access to any App and Book Products, content, or other materials comprising a part of the App and Book Services at any time without notice. In no event will Apple be liable for making these changes. http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms.html http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms...
    - judk 12y ago
      Tolerating is not the same as agreeing. There is no meaningful alternative to allowing app deletion.
      - arjie 12y ago
        If this is really a problem for you, here's a solution: 1. Get a Nexus phone. 2. Flash to a custom ROM. 3. Don't flash Google Apps. 4. Sideload APKs or use an alternative store. 5. Enjoy. The reason you can't have everything is that the app devs and most people prefer the store situation. If this is a particular problem for you, there will be sacrifices.
    - Chronic29 12y ago
      This. If you don't want to give permissions to the apps on the app store. Feel free to use something else.
    - tedks 12y ago
      Well, I use an Android phone, but regardless, I've never given anyone permission. Maybe in a legal sense someone could claim that, but that's irrelevant to what's actually happened. Stop letting game-riggers dictate your view of reality.
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and advocating free software, or openly advocating for autocratic computer systems management I am basically saying that the market can support both but is trending toward user acceptance of the latter. All those EULAs out there are the agreements that make all this possible. If people rejected those terms then we wouldn't be in this pickle.
smackfu 12y ago
>Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device Where does the article say that?
walterbell 12y ago
The Onion on The Power of Selling Out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8c_m6U1f9o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8c_m6U1f9o
imgabe 12y ago
Does this apply to only apps downloaded from their respective app stores or can they do it with apps you download and install independently too?
nols 12y ago
It never says they can, it just says they have to. Completely separate meaning, in fact it calls it a "tall order" which means at the very least that's it's pretty difficult if not impossible.
- bentcorner 12y ago
  Even if it's technically impossible now doesn't mean that it won't be technically impossible in the future. It's plausible that future iterations of smart phones will make progress on this "feature", should it become a more stringent requirement for shipping in Brazil.
nfoz 12y ago
The infrastructure for censorship/surveillance is the infrastructure that gives you ad revenue. This train can't be stopped.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dmdeller 12y ago
> Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device. This is been public knowledge for as long as the App Store has existed: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/11/30-million-in-app-store-sales-in-one-month/ http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/11/30-million-in-app-store-... Jailbreakers found it almost immediately: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549203 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549203

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

That Orwellian power is the truly terrifying story there. Only if you somehow consider the app store and mobile infrastructure a public good, which is most certainly is not. There are open source/decentralized options that you are free to use.

sp332 12y ago
Google doesn't have to literally be the government to wield power that only a government (or not even a government) should have.
- mpyne 12y ago
  At the same time, you don't generally get a choice about what laws are in effect in the land you live in, but you do get to choose whether to buy Google or Apple products and partake of their app stores, or whether to go F/OSS and keep your freedom.
tedks 12y ago
I consider my phone to be my property. Typically, other people or corporations can't make changes to my property without my permission. I guess by "mobile infrastructure" you can extend that to "every phone," in which case why not remotely remove programs from PCs as well? Why not just say outright that the coalition of your local government plus Apple/Microsoft own your computer, rather than you? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and advocating free software, or openly advocating for autocratic computer systems management. (This is of course what RMS has been saying for literally decades, but for the people on HN who disagree with RMS, ... told you so.)
- blazingfrog2 12y ago
  > other people or corporations can't make changes to my property without my permission. IANAL but it seems you have given permission: Notwithstanding any other provision of this Agreement, Apple and its principals reserve the right to change, suspend, remove, or disable access to any App and Book Products, content, or other materials comprising a part of the App and Book Services at any time without notice. In no event will Apple be liable for making these changes. http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms.html http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/us/terms...
  - judk 12y ago
    Tolerating is not the same as agreeing. There is no meaningful alternative to allowing app deletion.
    - arjie 12y ago
      If this is really a problem for you, here's a solution: 1. Get a Nexus phone. 2. Flash to a custom ROM. 3. Don't flash Google Apps. 4. Sideload APKs or use an alternative store. 5. Enjoy. The reason you can't have everything is that the app devs and most people prefer the store situation. If this is a particular problem for you, there will be sacrifices.
  - Chronic29 12y ago
    This. If you don't want to give permissions to the apps on the app store. Feel free to use something else.
  - tedks 12y ago
    Well, I use an Android phone, but regardless, I've never given anyone permission. Maybe in a legal sense someone could claim that, but that's irrelevant to what's actually happened. Stop letting game-riggers dictate your view of reality.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and advocating free software, or openly advocating for autocratic computer systems management I am basically saying that the market can support both but is trending toward user acceptance of the latter. All those EULAs out there are the agreements that make all this possible. If people rejected those terms then we wouldn't be in this pickle.

smackfu 12y ago

>Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device Where does the article say that?

walterbell 12y ago

The Onion on The Power of Selling Out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8c_m6U1f9o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8c_m6U1f9o

imgabe 12y ago

Does this apply to only apps downloaded from their respective app stores or can they do it with apps you download and install independently too?

nols 12y ago

It never says they can, it just says they have to. Completely separate meaning, in fact it calls it a "tall order" which means at the very least that's it's pretty difficult if not impossible.

bentcorner 12y ago
Even if it's technically impossible now doesn't mean that it won't be technically impossible in the future. It's plausible that future iterations of smart phones will make progress on this "feature", should it become a more stringent requirement for shipping in Brazil.

nfoz 12y ago

The infrastructure for censorship/surveillance is the infrastructure that gives you ad revenue. This train can't be stopped.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dmdeller 12y ago

> Google, Apple and Microsoft, all have the power to delete those apps from your device. This is been public knowledge for as long as the App Store has existed: http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/11/30-million-in-app-store-sales-in-one-month/ http://www.macrumors.com/2008/08/11/30-million-in-app-store-... Jailbreakers found it almost immediately: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549203 http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=549203