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"The only place megafauna has survived to some extent to the present day is in Africa where people traditionally have lived in harmony with nature." Bullshit.

"The only place megafauna has survived to some extent to the present day is in Africa where people traditionally have lived in harmony with nature." Bullshit. From what I understand it's attributable to megafauna evolving alongside humans as they emerged in Africa. They had time to "learn" how to survive in the face of this new predator. In places like North America humans slaughtered and multiplied faster than their prey could adapt.

nitrogen 12y ago
Though by many standards I could be considered an environmentalist, I find the "harmony with nature" trope to be laughable. Nature is not harmonious; it is a vicious battle of killing, eating, and survival. We should absolutely preserve and protect our environment. We can never live in "harmony" with something that is far from harmonious.
- pizza234 12y ago
  The concept of harmony can refer to lions not chasing gazelles, which is certainly unrealistic , but it can also mean sustainable and balanced. Nature is certainly vicious and ever changing, but there is a balance in the bigger picture, and man is making (or let's say, is at risk of making) excessively disrupting changes. If that's the meaning, that's certainly not laughable.
  - lutorm 12y ago
    The notion of "nature in balance" is selection bias. There are certainly places where nature is not sustainable and balanced. Look for example at what happens with the introduction of invasive species (which may happen these days because of humans, but I imagine the opening of the Bering's Strait land bridge would have lead to a similar disruption.) Pre-human nature only appeared balanced because it had had a long time to equilibrate, not because of some innate quality.
- integraton 12y ago
  The notion of "harmony with nature" has to do with balance, conservation, and sustainable development, not the absence of death within the system.
- yaks_hairbrush 12y ago
  I likewise find the "harmony with nature" idea to be laughable, but for a very different reason. If "nature" has any meaning at all, then we are part of it. Other animals are perfectly happy to change their situation to their benefit. Beavers, for example, can create lakes by choking off rivers. Are they living "in harmony" with nature? That feels like a strange question to me, and so I wonder why it shouldn't feel like a strange question when the beavers are replaced by humans.
  - lutorm 12y ago
    Beavers, in some sense, must, because their impacts have had plenty of time to get back at the beavers if it was going to. That doesn't mean they didn't ruin it for some other species. It's kind of the idea that the most successful parasites can't kill their hosts too efficiently or quickly, because then they run out of places to live. If you screw up your environment like that, it'll come back to haunt you.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    Animals without a natural check on their population and resource consumption can also experience a population boom followed by a sharp decline and even collapse, possibly extinction.
    - lutusp 12y ago
      Yes, very true. I've recently been working on a mathematical extension of the Logistic function that models this process that's often seen in nature: http://arachnoid.com/peak_people http://arachnoid.com/peak_people
      - nitrogen 12y ago
        I wonder, could you create a closed form of the final solution by allowing only a portion of the nonrenewable resources to be consumed? At least, this should remove the sudden discontinuity in the slope of the nonrenewable resources function.
- NhanH 12y ago
  Normally, I considered "harmony with nature" to be roughly equivalent to "Nash equilibrium that won't make human extinct". In other words, human has to make way for "nature" (to a certain extend), or risk being wiped out in the long run. Nature will always be fine, whether humanity as we know it survives is the problem.
fiatmoney 12y ago
Africa has historically had much lower population density, well below Malthusian limits. Less population pressure from humans may have contributed to the survival of megafauna.
- WildUtah 12y ago
  The lower population pressure in Africa is a reflection of parasites that evolved with humans there. By escaping from Malaria carried by African mosquitos and parasites carried by tsetse flies and the like humans lived longer, more fertile lives. The resulting population pressure outside Africa let humans kill the megafauna. The lower population density in Africa wasn't some kind of harmony, it was a result of awful disease. Now that many diseases are under control, Africa's population is exploding in a region where birth control was never relevant before. It is already overpopulated and still has birthrates that more than double population with each generation. Soon it will be the most overpopulated region in the world. The megafauna will require heroic efforts to save.
  - fiatmoney 12y ago
    This is the exact point of the above, so I'm not sure why it was downvoted.
joshuaheard 12y ago
I was watching Survivorman the other day and he said something along the lines of, "I don't live in harmony with nature. I fight nature every day in order to survive."
- justizin 12y ago
  "... and it is this television hero upon whom my entire perception and philosophy of nature is based."

nitrogen 12y ago

Though by many standards I could be considered an environmentalist, I find the "harmony with nature" trope to be laughable. Nature is not harmonious; it is a vicious battle of killing, eating, and survival. We should absolutely preserve and protect our environment. We can never live in "harmony" with something that is far from harmonious.

pizza234 12y ago
The concept of harmony can refer to lions not chasing gazelles, which is certainly unrealistic , but it can also mean sustainable and balanced. Nature is certainly vicious and ever changing, but there is a balance in the bigger picture, and man is making (or let's say, is at risk of making) excessively disrupting changes. If that's the meaning, that's certainly not laughable.
- lutorm 12y ago
  The notion of "nature in balance" is selection bias. There are certainly places where nature is not sustainable and balanced. Look for example at what happens with the introduction of invasive species (which may happen these days because of humans, but I imagine the opening of the Bering's Strait land bridge would have lead to a similar disruption.) Pre-human nature only appeared balanced because it had had a long time to equilibrate, not because of some innate quality.
integraton 12y ago
The notion of "harmony with nature" has to do with balance, conservation, and sustainable development, not the absence of death within the system.
yaks_hairbrush 12y ago
I likewise find the "harmony with nature" idea to be laughable, but for a very different reason. If "nature" has any meaning at all, then we are part of it. Other animals are perfectly happy to change their situation to their benefit. Beavers, for example, can create lakes by choking off rivers. Are they living "in harmony" with nature? That feels like a strange question to me, and so I wonder why it shouldn't feel like a strange question when the beavers are replaced by humans.
- lutorm 12y ago
  Beavers, in some sense, must, because their impacts have had plenty of time to get back at the beavers if it was going to. That doesn't mean they didn't ruin it for some other species. It's kind of the idea that the most successful parasites can't kill their hosts too efficiently or quickly, because then they run out of places to live. If you screw up your environment like that, it'll come back to haunt you.
- deciplex 12y ago
  Animals without a natural check on their population and resource consumption can also experience a population boom followed by a sharp decline and even collapse, possibly extinction.
  - lutusp 12y ago
    Yes, very true. I've recently been working on a mathematical extension of the Logistic function that models this process that's often seen in nature: http://arachnoid.com/peak_people http://arachnoid.com/peak_people
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      I wonder, could you create a closed form of the final solution by allowing only a portion of the nonrenewable resources to be consumed? At least, this should remove the sudden discontinuity in the slope of the nonrenewable resources function.
NhanH 12y ago
Normally, I considered "harmony with nature" to be roughly equivalent to "Nash equilibrium that won't make human extinct". In other words, human has to make way for "nature" (to a certain extend), or risk being wiped out in the long run. Nature will always be fine, whether humanity as we know it survives is the problem.

fiatmoney 12y ago

Africa has historically had much lower population density, well below Malthusian limits. Less population pressure from humans may have contributed to the survival of megafauna.

WildUtah 12y ago
The lower population pressure in Africa is a reflection of parasites that evolved with humans there. By escaping from Malaria carried by African mosquitos and parasites carried by tsetse flies and the like humans lived longer, more fertile lives. The resulting population pressure outside Africa let humans kill the megafauna. The lower population density in Africa wasn't some kind of harmony, it was a result of awful disease. Now that many diseases are under control, Africa's population is exploding in a region where birth control was never relevant before. It is already overpopulated and still has birthrates that more than double population with each generation. Soon it will be the most overpopulated region in the world. The megafauna will require heroic efforts to save.
- fiatmoney 12y ago
  This is the exact point of the above, so I'm not sure why it was downvoted.

joshuaheard 12y ago

I was watching Survivorman the other day and he said something along the lines of, "I don't live in harmony with nature. I fight nature every day in order to survive."

justizin 12y ago
"... and it is this television hero upon whom my entire perception and philosophy of nature is based."