6 ms·

"This means that it’s very possible none of us are making anywhere near minimum wage on this project, but regardless we’re all making about the same hourly wage

"This means that it’s very possible none of us are making anywhere near minimum wage on this project, but regardless we’re all making about the same hourly wage, a wage determined by the relative commercial success of the game." Game industry, I do not miss you.

angersock 12y ago
The saddest thing is that so many are so passionate about it. :(
- exelius 12y ago
  Try to think of being a game developer as similar to being a musician or a painter. You can be plenty passionate about it, but it's a hard business and there are only so many dollars up for grabs. For every musician who is able to make a living off of music, there are probably 10 equally talented and passionate musicians who didn't. I think game development is turning out to be a similar business.
  - tr0picana 12y ago
    I completely agree. For every successful indie game developer there are at least 10 who have either quit part-way or failed to make any money.
- morgante 12y ago
  > The saddest thing is that so many are so passionate about it. :( That's precisely why pay is so low.
  - Macsenour 12y ago
    If you love what you do, it's not work.
    - biafra 12y ago
      If you have to do something else, to pay your rent, you can not do what you love.
    - angersock 12y ago
      Doesn't mean I shouldn't be well-compensated for it. I'm creating value for others, right?
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
      Spoken like management. there are four words you have to remember in this economy and they're either "show me the money" or "fuck you, pay me".
      - eropple 12y ago
        I prefer "I am coin-operated."
- cdwhite 12y ago
  Lars Doucet's http://www.fortressofdoors.com/follow-your-dreams-or-maybe-dont/ http://www.fortressofdoors.com/follow-your-dreams-or-maybe-d... seems relevant. His company made a reasonably successful indie game ("Defender's Quest"); this article talks through his ambivalence about following a passion for making games, in the context of that experience. Could work out but probably won't, and it's OK either to not try or to try, give up, and try again at something with better odds. Edit: missing verb, missing particle in infinitive
exelius 12y ago
I think that the reality that is reflected here is that most game development moved overseas a long time ago for a reason. The indie games market is too crowded, gamer willingness to pay is too low, and none of the skills required for developing an indie game are exceptionally hard to find. As such, indie game development rarely pays a living wage in the US. If you lived somewhere with a significantly lower cost of living, it might not be so bad.
- benologist 12y ago
  I don't think that's accurate at all. Most games, and startups, are just bad ideas that can't pay for employees and stuff. The problem isn't living expenses, that's just one number you need to reach. Developers who can't make money can't afford to make games as their occupation.
  - exelius 12y ago
    It's not living expenses alone; I have worked for a company that does a significant amount of offshore hiring. The going rate for a competent developer in India is less than $20,000 per year. In India, $20k a year buys you a comfortable life. The equivalent salary in the US is probably $100k. The numbers in China are similar (though Chinese developers are harder to work with because their English tends to not be as good). Given this context, some of these "game dev fail" stories about making $20k from a year's worth of work suddenly turn into success stories. So imagine if you went and hired a hundred developers and started cranking out 10 games a month. Some would succeed, most would fail, but the failures can just be reskinned and sold again.
- mjn 12y ago
  Significantly lower cost of living, or better sources of early-stage funding. Some countries have started including games in their arts or film funding, which can be a viable source of initial funds (especially in countries where the arts funding is fairly large, relative to population). A lot of our students (I teach in a game program in Denmark) pay for the first 3-12 months of their indie studios that way. Those are typically $15k initial grants, and a possibility of around $100k-$200k follow-on funding towards production, if they're convinced it's worth funding at more than the seed level. Obviously that's not going to pay for an AAA game, but it gives indie developers some runway. The early funding for Playdead's Limbo [1] was through that route, for example, and then they sought commercial investors later. Here are this year's recipients: http://www.dfi.dk/Branche_og_stoette/Spilordningen/stoettede-spil-foraar-2014.aspx http://www.dfi.dk/Branche_og_stoette/Spilordningen/stoettede... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game)
benologist 12y ago
Startups and businesses are identical to this? It's not like you get to pay yourself a fair salary out of nothing just because you feel you worked hard.
- potatolicious 12y ago
  Startups are a gamble with a high upside. If you win you'll be fabulously wealthy and probably never have to work again. "Winning" in the game industry simply means you get to survive to work on the next project. Even high-profile studios with great track records are financially stumbling from one project into the next, and a single failure will sink them. Nobody is getting rich here - best case scenario you make a market wage, worst case scenario you make little to nothing.
  - benologist 12y ago
    Categorically wrong. Winning in games is worth billions of dollars - King, SuperCell, Rovio, EA, Zynga etc. Almost nobody reaches this level however there's many levels of success between bankrupt and billions where the good enough can survive to try again. Exactly like startups and businesses in general.
    - eloisant 12y ago
      Well, there are proportionally less successes in games because it's crowded. And you're in competition with people happy to make less than minimum wage, so good luck with that. It's pretty much a rule in business: if you go to the shiny/fun/popular market, you'll have a hundreds of competitors and it will be very hard. If you go to a more "boring" market that competitors ignore, you have a higher chance to get the jackpot.
      - benologist 12y ago
        Your thoughts are pretty closely tied to the number of massively successful games being dwarfed by massively successful startups but they're both extremely rare and they both fight their way through tons of competition to get to the top of their fields. Plus the bit where game developers are happy to make minimum wage while everyone else is more expensive sounds imaginary. YC has funded a ton of companies, very few of which have/will generate huge rewards, one of which was a game company.
ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
I think it's more about the pains of being independent, rather than just game development.

angersock 12y ago

The saddest thing is that so many are so passionate about it. :(

exelius 12y ago
Try to think of being a game developer as similar to being a musician or a painter. You can be plenty passionate about it, but it's a hard business and there are only so many dollars up for grabs. For every musician who is able to make a living off of music, there are probably 10 equally talented and passionate musicians who didn't. I think game development is turning out to be a similar business.
- tr0picana 12y ago
  I completely agree. For every successful indie game developer there are at least 10 who have either quit part-way or failed to make any money.
morgante 12y ago
> The saddest thing is that so many are so passionate about it. :( That's precisely why pay is so low.
- Macsenour 12y ago
  If you love what you do, it's not work.
  - biafra 12y ago
    If you have to do something else, to pay your rent, you can not do what you love.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Doesn't mean I shouldn't be well-compensated for it. I'm creating value for others, right?
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 12y ago
    Spoken like management. there are four words you have to remember in this economy and they're either "show me the money" or "fuck you, pay me".
    - eropple 12y ago
      I prefer "I am coin-operated."
cdwhite 12y ago
Lars Doucet's http://www.fortressofdoors.com/follow-your-dreams-or-maybe-dont/ http://www.fortressofdoors.com/follow-your-dreams-or-maybe-d... seems relevant. His company made a reasonably successful indie game ("Defender's Quest"); this article talks through his ambivalence about following a passion for making games, in the context of that experience. Could work out but probably won't, and it's OK either to not try or to try, give up, and try again at something with better odds. Edit: missing verb, missing particle in infinitive

exelius 12y ago

I think that the reality that is reflected here is that most game development moved overseas a long time ago for a reason. The indie games market is too crowded, gamer willingness to pay is too low, and none of the skills required for developing an indie game are exceptionally hard to find. As such, indie game development rarely pays a living wage in the US. If you lived somewhere with a significantly lower cost of living, it might not be so bad.

benologist 12y ago
I don't think that's accurate at all. Most games, and startups, are just bad ideas that can't pay for employees and stuff. The problem isn't living expenses, that's just one number you need to reach. Developers who can't make money can't afford to make games as their occupation.
- exelius 12y ago
  It's not living expenses alone; I have worked for a company that does a significant amount of offshore hiring. The going rate for a competent developer in India is less than $20,000 per year. In India, $20k a year buys you a comfortable life. The equivalent salary in the US is probably $100k. The numbers in China are similar (though Chinese developers are harder to work with because their English tends to not be as good). Given this context, some of these "game dev fail" stories about making $20k from a year's worth of work suddenly turn into success stories. So imagine if you went and hired a hundred developers and started cranking out 10 games a month. Some would succeed, most would fail, but the failures can just be reskinned and sold again.
mjn 12y ago
Significantly lower cost of living, or better sources of early-stage funding. Some countries have started including games in their arts or film funding, which can be a viable source of initial funds (especially in countries where the arts funding is fairly large, relative to population). A lot of our students (I teach in a game program in Denmark) pay for the first 3-12 months of their indie studios that way. Those are typically $15k initial grants, and a possibility of around $100k-$200k follow-on funding towards production, if they're convinced it's worth funding at more than the seed level. Obviously that's not going to pay for an AAA game, but it gives indie developers some runway. The early funding for Playdead's Limbo [1] was through that route, for example, and then they sought commercial investors later. Here are this year's recipients: http://www.dfi.dk/Branche_og_stoette/Spilordningen/stoettede-spil-foraar-2014.aspx http://www.dfi.dk/Branche_og_stoette/Spilordningen/stoettede... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo_(video_game)

benologist 12y ago

Startups and businesses are identical to this? It's not like you get to pay yourself a fair salary out of nothing just because you feel you worked hard.

potatolicious 12y ago
Startups are a gamble with a high upside. If you win you'll be fabulously wealthy and probably never have to work again. "Winning" in the game industry simply means you get to survive to work on the next project. Even high-profile studios with great track records are financially stumbling from one project into the next, and a single failure will sink them. Nobody is getting rich here - best case scenario you make a market wage, worst case scenario you make little to nothing.
- benologist 12y ago
  Categorically wrong. Winning in games is worth billions of dollars - King, SuperCell, Rovio, EA, Zynga etc. Almost nobody reaches this level however there's many levels of success between bankrupt and billions where the good enough can survive to try again. Exactly like startups and businesses in general.
  - eloisant 12y ago
    Well, there are proportionally less successes in games because it's crowded. And you're in competition with people happy to make less than minimum wage, so good luck with that. It's pretty much a rule in business: if you go to the shiny/fun/popular market, you'll have a hundreds of competitors and it will be very hard. If you go to a more "boring" market that competitors ignore, you have a higher chance to get the jackpot.
    - benologist 12y ago
      Your thoughts are pretty closely tied to the number of massively successful games being dwarfed by massively successful startups but they're both extremely rare and they both fight their way through tons of competition to get to the top of their fields. Plus the bit where game developers are happy to make minimum wage while everyone else is more expensive sounds imaginary. YC has funded a ton of companies, very few of which have/will generate huge rewards, one of which was a game company.

ulisesrmzroche 12y ago

I think it's more about the pains of being independent, rather than just game development.