3 ms·

I'm a bit annoyed with the title--I take great offense that somehow I'm not an "adult" because I'm not wearing some bullshit costume when not in a customer-faci

I'm a bit annoyed with the title--I take great offense that somehow I'm not an "adult" because I'm not wearing some bullshit costume when not in a customer-facing position. Seriously, software is eating the world (lol), and it's still funny to treat developers as infantile? Christ. ~ https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/378059600 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/378059600 "RELOCATION EXPENSES WILL NOT BE PAID" Fuck you, Fedland.

thrownaway2424 12y ago
People get treated like children when they behave like children. This isn't specific to software developers, though. I see grown men wearing shorts and flip-flops quite frequently. These people are stuck in childhood. Where I work the carpenters are consistently better-dressed than the hackers, just by way of having pants and shoes. That's a bit sad, to me. I actually feel like I'll be ridiculed if I wear a collared shirt to work, although there is an identifiable backlash of properly-dressed adults in the office, which I applaud. Anyway, I find it regrettable if the image of the profession is one of disheveled, slovenly, overgrown babies. I don't think that's healthy and I doubt it contributes much to diversifying away from white males.
- mikeash 12y ago
  What's "like children" about not wearing a suit and tie?
- freehunter 12y ago
  Where do you work? Here in the Midwest, I've had only one job where I've been able to wear jeans. Every other tech job has required business casual, meaning a button-up and slacks same as everyone else in the company (except the sales guys, they generally wear suits). If you don't agree with the dress code of the company (and especially if you disagree that strongly), the company culture might not be a great fit for you. I've grown up expecting California tech workers to dress like Kevin Rose. I've grown up expecting everyone else to dress in business casual. I wouldn't say the image of the profession is necessarily disheveled. It depends on where you are and what company you work for.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  Developers have realized that the technology of fashion, just like that of software, doesn't need to be stuck in the past. There's nothing slovenly or disheveled about wearing nice jeans or nice shorts instead of stuffy slacks. Suits can look amazing, but they are just one tiny corner of the realm of possible styles, and nobody likes being backed into a corner.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    We should go back to togas. If it was good enough for Julius Caesar, it should be good enough for me.
- Turing_Machine 12y ago
  You're claiming that forcing people to wear expensive (to buy and maintain) clothing that is hideously uncomfortable in any climate (other than its place of origin in the British Isles), and that is designed to enforce conformity with the most reactionary norms of the prevailing culture promotes "diversity"? Okay.
- Scuds 12y ago
  I've been contracting for fifteen years across many work environments, but I can only count on one hand people I'd describe as 'slovenly overgrown babies' who'll roll home after work and play EvE and Minecraft until 2 AM.
Spooky23 12y ago
Your "customer" as someone working for the Executive Office of the President is almost invariably high level leadership. Choosing to flagrantly break the convention of the business makes you like a prima-donna and is an obstacle to your own success. Why blow the large investment of political capital that the POTUS is investing in you to get past stupid political problems caused by wearing inappropriate material. This goes both ways -- if you stroll into a Valley company in a three-piece suit, people are going to look at you funny and discount your advice. You don't win by alienating the customer.
- angersock 12y ago
  (note: this is musing on my part, not necessarily what is being thought by those in charge) So, there's a lot of interesting signalling at work, right? Clearly, if you want to show "Hey, we're serious about improving the tech issues in government--so much so that we're willing to try new ideas and get out of our comfort zone" the simplest way of doing that (far simpler than, say, granting actual authority, spending money, or whatever else) is to "allow" these coders in in their native dress. It gives you PR opportunities which might help lure in more developers and let the public think "oh golly they've got smart-looking folks working for them...they must be serious!". It lets you easily identify who is probably part of the tech branch, because they dress differently than everyone else given the opportunity. This additionally helps create a bit of minor strife between them and everyone else: you have a way of constantly reminding other departments that you can embed people in them they wouldn't otherwise like and make it stick, that you can grant leniency to those you favor, and that you can deny assistance that they (internally) know that they need by withholding the wiz kids (who, again, are easy to spot). Additionally, you end up with a mild antagonism which helps scapegoat the nerds if they don't work out: "Oh, yeah, well, they just didn't fit in--didn't even bother to dress like us. Sorry about that, we'll bring back the old contractors...they knew how be respectful (read: behave)". ~ I'm generally loathe to dive into such power-politics and scheming, but if there's one place it may actually be happening, it's DC.
  - Spooky23 12y ago
    I've worked extensively in government, although not at the Federal level. That distinction is a double-edged sword. Life in a government bureaucracy is different than in the real world. There is very little distinction in terms of compensation, so leaders measure status by other measures: control, headcount, etc. If you're trying to affect change, the smart bureaucrats will "support" you, but stand back and do little to help you. (Remember the President has a shelf-life, they just need to delay two years) But when your elite programmers wearing shorts and flip-flops have any kind of issues, they will immediately turn on and marginalize them. It's easy to target "them", because they stick out like sore thumbs. As a self-contained group working for the ultimate big shot, your air cover is then at risk, because the people surrounding the commissioner/mayor/governor/president will distance their principal from any potential of failure.

thrownaway2424 12y ago

People get treated like children when they behave like children. This isn't specific to software developers, though. I see grown men wearing shorts and flip-flops quite frequently. These people are stuck in childhood. Where I work the carpenters are consistently better-dressed than the hackers, just by way of having pants and shoes. That's a bit sad, to me. I actually feel like I'll be ridiculed if I wear a collared shirt to work, although there is an identifiable backlash of properly-dressed adults in the office, which I applaud. Anyway, I find it regrettable if the image of the profession is one of disheveled, slovenly, overgrown babies. I don't think that's healthy and I doubt it contributes much to diversifying away from white males.

mikeash 12y ago
What's "like children" about not wearing a suit and tie?
freehunter 12y ago
Where do you work? Here in the Midwest, I've had only one job where I've been able to wear jeans. Every other tech job has required business casual, meaning a button-up and slacks same as everyone else in the company (except the sales guys, they generally wear suits). If you don't agree with the dress code of the company (and especially if you disagree that strongly), the company culture might not be a great fit for you. I've grown up expecting California tech workers to dress like Kevin Rose. I've grown up expecting everyone else to dress in business casual. I wouldn't say the image of the profession is necessarily disheveled. It depends on where you are and what company you work for.
nitrogen 12y ago
Developers have realized that the technology of fashion, just like that of software, doesn't need to be stuck in the past. There's nothing slovenly or disheveled about wearing nice jeans or nice shorts instead of stuffy slacks. Suits can look amazing, but they are just one tiny corner of the realm of possible styles, and nobody likes being backed into a corner.
- mikeash 12y ago
  We should go back to togas. If it was good enough for Julius Caesar, it should be good enough for me.
Turing_Machine 12y ago
You're claiming that forcing people to wear expensive (to buy and maintain) clothing that is hideously uncomfortable in any climate (other than its place of origin in the British Isles), and that is designed to enforce conformity with the most reactionary norms of the prevailing culture promotes "diversity"? Okay.
Scuds 12y ago
I've been contracting for fifteen years across many work environments, but I can only count on one hand people I'd describe as 'slovenly overgrown babies' who'll roll home after work and play EvE and Minecraft until 2 AM.

Spooky23 12y ago

Your "customer" as someone working for the Executive Office of the President is almost invariably high level leadership. Choosing to flagrantly break the convention of the business makes you like a prima-donna and is an obstacle to your own success. Why blow the large investment of political capital that the POTUS is investing in you to get past stupid political problems caused by wearing inappropriate material. This goes both ways -- if you stroll into a Valley company in a three-piece suit, people are going to look at you funny and discount your advice. You don't win by alienating the customer.

angersock 12y ago
(note: this is musing on my part, not necessarily what is being thought by those in charge) So, there's a lot of interesting signalling at work, right? Clearly, if you want to show "Hey, we're serious about improving the tech issues in government--so much so that we're willing to try new ideas and get out of our comfort zone" the simplest way of doing that (far simpler than, say, granting actual authority, spending money, or whatever else) is to "allow" these coders in in their native dress. It gives you PR opportunities which might help lure in more developers and let the public think "oh golly they've got smart-looking folks working for them...they must be serious!". It lets you easily identify who is probably part of the tech branch, because they dress differently than everyone else given the opportunity. This additionally helps create a bit of minor strife between them and everyone else: you have a way of constantly reminding other departments that you can embed people in them they wouldn't otherwise like and make it stick, that you can grant leniency to those you favor, and that you can deny assistance that they (internally) know that they need by withholding the wiz kids (who, again, are easy to spot). Additionally, you end up with a mild antagonism which helps scapegoat the nerds if they don't work out: "Oh, yeah, well, they just didn't fit in--didn't even bother to dress like us. Sorry about that, we'll bring back the old contractors...they knew how be respectful (read: behave)". ~ I'm generally loathe to dive into such power-politics and scheming, but if there's one place it may actually be happening, it's DC.
- Spooky23 12y ago
  I've worked extensively in government, although not at the Federal level. That distinction is a double-edged sword. Life in a government bureaucracy is different than in the real world. There is very little distinction in terms of compensation, so leaders measure status by other measures: control, headcount, etc. If you're trying to affect change, the smart bureaucrats will "support" you, but stand back and do little to help you. (Remember the President has a shelf-life, they just need to delay two years) But when your elite programmers wearing shorts and flip-flops have any kind of issues, they will immediately turn on and marginalize them. It's easy to target "them", because they stick out like sore thumbs. As a self-contained group working for the ultimate big shot, your air cover is then at risk, because the people surrounding the commissioner/mayor/governor/president will distance their principal from any potential of failure.