11 ms·

"I did examine myself," he said. "Solitude did increase my perception. But here's the tricky thing—when I applied my increased perception to myself, I lost my i

by soneca 12y ago

"I did examine myself," he said. "Solitude did increase my perception. But here's the tricky thing—when I applied my increased perception to myself, I lost my identity. With no audience, no one to perform for, I was just there. There was no need to define myself; I became irrelevant. The moon was the minute hand, the seasons the hour hand. I didn't even have a name. I never felt lonely. To put it romantically: I was completely free." This part resonated a lot to me. I consider self-awareness one of my qualities. But I too feel like the more I try and understand myself, the more distanced of the world I am. If I micro-analyze every reaction I have, I miss the point to connect to another person. I take myself out of society. I found out that being defined by another person is a good thing for me. Particurlaly by people I love. I want to naturally be the person that made people I love love me.

personlurking 12y ago
Would you say your response is rooted more in your own personality or the fact you're from, according to your profile, what's considered a hyper-social culture (Brazil)?
- soneca 12y ago
  It is hard to determine that by myself. I think it is also hard to determine how much different on their essence are people from different cultures. Said that, I think it is more rooted in my own personality. I have good social skills, but I consider myself an introspective person. I always liked the silence, I don't care about small talk, I enjoy eating by myself, thinking for hours alone, etc. So my personality would be in opposition to the brazilian culture in general, in this sense. So I could see how our culture can be inapropiate some times. But after a time, I decided that there was more happiness in being part of a society than in being totally focused on myself. That dichotomy that is not obvious at first and me and the Hermit arrived at a similar conclusion. The diference is that he is happier opting out of society and I am happier opting in. Not that I betray my nature. I still enjoy a lot my moments alone. But I learned to see the value in connecting with another person, in developing empathy, not just self-awareness.
pinkyand 12y ago
The kind of situation(of identity loss and connectedness to nature ,etc) is kind of a goal in eastern meditation traditions. But another goal is creating compassionate people who care about others while carrying that identity-less feeling with them. And true, one risk is that one would be happy with himself and isolate himself. But those traditions know and try to manage those risks. And i don't think this loss of self comes from self introspection, but more from long solitude(which tends to break the psych construct we call ego). And no wonder he like solitude so strongly - he didn't find happiness among humans before. Hopefully after he get released , he can find some way to make a living while having the ability to live mostly alone and in nature.
- gambiting 12y ago
  I've heard about jobs that would enable that - working at national parks, where you are given a job to do and have to spend weeks in the wilderness carrying it out - marking paths, taking pictures, fixing things - ideal path for someone who doesn't want human contact, as there will be very little of it. The only question is if he would get it with his, now criminal, record.
  - jackgavigan 12y ago
    > I've heard about jobs that would enable that - working at national parks... Edward Abbey wrote about his experiences doing exactly this in Desert Solitaire.
    - keithflower 12y ago
      What did I do? There was nothing that had to be done. I listened to the voices, the many voices, vague, distant, but astonishingly human, the Havasu Creek. I heard the doors creak open, the doors creak shut, the old forgotten cabins where no one with tangible substance or the property of reflecting light ever entered, ever returned. I went native and dreamed away days on the shore of the pool under the waterfall, wandered naked as Adam under the cottonwoods, inspecting my cactus gardens. The days became wild, strange, ambiguous --- a sinister element pervaded the flow of time. I lived narcotic hours in which like the Taoist Chuang-tse I worried about butterflies and who was dreaming what. There was a serpent, a red racer, living in the rocks of the spring where I filled my canteens; he was always there, slipping among the stones or pausing to mesmerize me with his suggestive tongue and cloudly haunted primeval eyes. Damn his eyes. We got to know each other rather too well, I think. I agonized over the girls I had known and over those I hoped were yet to come. I slipped by degrees into lunacy, me and the moon, and lost to a certain extent the power to distinguish between what was and what was not myself looking at my hand, I would see a leaf trembling on a branch. A green leaf. I thought of Debussy, of Keats and Blake and Andrew Marvell. I remembered Tom O'Bedlam. And all of those lost and never remembered. Who would return? To be lost again? I went for walks. I went for walks, and on one of these, the last, I took in Havasu, regained everything that seemed to be ebbing away. -- Ed Abbey, Desert Solitaire http://www.hkhinc.com/arizona/havasu/articles/havasuabbey.htm http://www.hkhinc.com/arizona/havasu/articles/havasuabbey.ht...
dominotw 12y ago
>There was no need to define myself; Except he defined himself as someone who doesn't need to define himself. One can never be free from definitions.
- DennisP 12y ago
  That sounds pretty self-conscious and fake, like a teenager trying to dress like a nonconformist. Altered states of consciousness do exist, and extreme isolation is known to produce them.
  - dominotw 12y ago
    > like a teenager trying to dress like a nonconformist Precisely my point. True freedom is never is a reaction to something. I like Jiddu K's take on freedom http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=284&chid=4614 http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-tex...
    - DennisP 12y ago
      But my point is that that's not necessarily what the hermit was doing. I don't think he was reacting against the idea of defining himself. I think he was experiencing the effects of extreme isolation, and trying to describe afterwards what it felt like.
- DigitalJack 12y ago
  He lived for years without the need to define himself. And then someone asked him to. So for a while, perhaps he was free from definitions.
dtromero 12y ago
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: "It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Self-Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  For context, the entire essay: http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm as I went Googling. Excellent quote!
ca98am79 12y ago
When I did a 10-day vipassana meditation retreat last year, there is a rule that you can't talk or read or write or communicate in any way with anyone. Once we were allowed to talk again on the 10th day it surprised me how much I forgot about the way I saw myself. I realized that you see yourself through the way other people see you and the way they communicate this to you. It was a really interesting and valuable experience and I highly recommend it for anyone. In case you're interested, you can find out more here: http://dhamma.org http://dhamma.org

by soneca 12y ago

personlurking 12y ago

Would you say your response is rooted more in your own personality or the fact you're from, according to your profile, what's considered a hyper-social culture (Brazil)?

soneca 12y ago
It is hard to determine that by myself. I think it is also hard to determine how much different on their essence are people from different cultures. Said that, I think it is more rooted in my own personality. I have good social skills, but I consider myself an introspective person. I always liked the silence, I don't care about small talk, I enjoy eating by myself, thinking for hours alone, etc. So my personality would be in opposition to the brazilian culture in general, in this sense. So I could see how our culture can be inapropiate some times. But after a time, I decided that there was more happiness in being part of a society than in being totally focused on myself. That dichotomy that is not obvious at first and me and the Hermit arrived at a similar conclusion. The diference is that he is happier opting out of society and I am happier opting in. Not that I betray my nature. I still enjoy a lot my moments alone. But I learned to see the value in connecting with another person, in developing empathy, not just self-awareness.

pinkyand 12y ago

The kind of situation(of identity loss and connectedness to nature ,etc) is kind of a goal in eastern meditation traditions. But another goal is creating compassionate people who care about others while carrying that identity-less feeling with them. And true, one risk is that one would be happy with himself and isolate himself. But those traditions know and try to manage those risks. And i don't think this loss of self comes from self introspection, but more from long solitude(which tends to break the psych construct we call ego). And no wonder he like solitude so strongly - he didn't find happiness among humans before. Hopefully after he get released , he can find some way to make a living while having the ability to live mostly alone and in nature.

gambiting 12y ago
I've heard about jobs that would enable that - working at national parks, where you are given a job to do and have to spend weeks in the wilderness carrying it out - marking paths, taking pictures, fixing things - ideal path for someone who doesn't want human contact, as there will be very little of it. The only question is if he would get it with his, now criminal, record.
- jackgavigan 12y ago
  > I've heard about jobs that would enable that - working at national parks... Edward Abbey wrote about his experiences doing exactly this in Desert Solitaire.
  - keithflower 12y ago
    What did I do? There was nothing that had to be done. I listened to the voices, the many voices, vague, distant, but astonishingly human, the Havasu Creek. I heard the doors creak open, the doors creak shut, the old forgotten cabins where no one with tangible substance or the property of reflecting light ever entered, ever returned. I went native and dreamed away days on the shore of the pool under the waterfall, wandered naked as Adam under the cottonwoods, inspecting my cactus gardens. The days became wild, strange, ambiguous --- a sinister element pervaded the flow of time. I lived narcotic hours in which like the Taoist Chuang-tse I worried about butterflies and who was dreaming what. There was a serpent, a red racer, living in the rocks of the spring where I filled my canteens; he was always there, slipping among the stones or pausing to mesmerize me with his suggestive tongue and cloudly haunted primeval eyes. Damn his eyes. We got to know each other rather too well, I think. I agonized over the girls I had known and over those I hoped were yet to come. I slipped by degrees into lunacy, me and the moon, and lost to a certain extent the power to distinguish between what was and what was not myself looking at my hand, I would see a leaf trembling on a branch. A green leaf. I thought of Debussy, of Keats and Blake and Andrew Marvell. I remembered Tom O'Bedlam. And all of those lost and never remembered. Who would return? To be lost again? I went for walks. I went for walks, and on one of these, the last, I took in Havasu, regained everything that seemed to be ebbing away. -- Ed Abbey, Desert Solitaire http://www.hkhinc.com/arizona/havasu/articles/havasuabbey.htm http://www.hkhinc.com/arizona/havasu/articles/havasuabbey.ht...

dominotw 12y ago

>There was no need to define myself; Except he defined himself as someone who doesn't need to define himself. One can never be free from definitions.

DennisP 12y ago
That sounds pretty self-conscious and fake, like a teenager trying to dress like a nonconformist. Altered states of consciousness do exist, and extreme isolation is known to produce them.
- dominotw 12y ago
  > like a teenager trying to dress like a nonconformist Precisely my point. True freedom is never is a reaction to something. I like Jiddu K's take on freedom http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=284&chid=4614 http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-tex...
  - DennisP 12y ago
    But my point is that that's not necessarily what the hermit was doing. I don't think he was reacting against the idea of defining himself. I think he was experiencing the effects of extreme isolation, and trying to describe afterwards what it felt like.
DigitalJack 12y ago
He lived for years without the need to define himself. And then someone asked him to. So for a while, perhaps he was free from definitions.

dtromero 12y ago

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: "It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Self-Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson

toomuchtodo 12y ago
For context, the entire essay: http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm as I went Googling. Excellent quote!

ca98am79 12y ago

When I did a 10-day vipassana meditation retreat last year, there is a rule that you can't talk or read or write or communicate in any way with anyone. Once we were allowed to talk again on the 10th day it surprised me how much I forgot about the way I saw myself. I realized that you see yourself through the way other people see you and the way they communicate this to you. It was a really interesting and valuable experience and I highly recommend it for anyone. In case you're interested, you can find out more here: http://dhamma.org http://dhamma.org