4 ms·

I would be willing to bet that in a double-blinded study the difference would be a lot less clear cut then you propose.

by amelim 17y ago

encoderer 17y ago
To be fair, I think you'd have to distinguish between Industrial Organic and true farmers-market / moms-backyard organic. You give somebody a tomato, an apple, a pear from Kroger or Safeway or Publix, and another from an organic farmers market... I'd be just as willing as you to bet on that random consumer selecting the organic produce.
- amelim 17y ago
  So you want to compare a piece of produce that has probably traveled for several days and sat around waiting to be selected against one from a farmers market where it was probably picked the day or two before? It seems like you are arguing against distribution methods, not organic/non-organic.
  - encoderer 17y ago
    The trouble is that there often isn't a choice of "non-industrial non-organic." The 2 farmers markets in my area are stocked full of organic produce. Probably because a farmer can sell it for a few dollars more to people just like me if he produces organic. And you can't separate the distribution method from its production method. They're part and parcel of each other. I would much rather buy locally-grown, non-organic produce than organic produce grown in an industrial operation a thousand miles away.
    - azanar 17y ago
      I would much rather buy locally-grown, non-organic produce than organic produce grown in an industrial operation a thousand miles away. Why? Outside of the arguments of freshness, which could be dealt with by a more efficient distribution mechanism, I don't see any net benefit. I'll admit that the argument toward supporting local farmers carries little weight with me. Outside of the freshness argument, it strikes me as little more than small-town sentimentalism. There are a number of other industries where we did far better when we dispatched that argument; I'm not yet convinced that food production is any different. I can imagine all sorts of economies of scale that could be exploited, but we have to let the economy scale first.
      - encoderer 17y ago
        The trouble is that food production is more organism than industry. And most of our obesity problems in this country, and a great deal of greenhouse gas effects, derive from ignorance of that fact. The American industrial food chain consumes more oil than American automobiles. The industrial food chain enforces a farm mono culture where a plot of land sees only one crop, year on year, for decades. Or maybe two: Maybe soybeans get thrown in the mix. Local polyculture farms raise animals and a number of different crops in a little dance that mimics the natural cycle of life. Cows eat grass, and they and horses are the only animals that can. Birds clean up after the cows. What's left when the birds are done grows more grass. Goto 1. The industrial farm leaves over-tilled dead soil in desperate need of artificial fertility, and ridding these farms of animals leaves them all on gigantic feed lots with manure ponds. If you don't see the problems with this, you've buried your head in the sand. And that doesn't even touch the surface of the massive amount of fossil fuel we use to truck produce and meat 2000+ miles to a supermarket that itself is filled with thousands up thousands of food-like substances. Huge agribusiness has proven you can indeed industrialize food. And to anybody that's ever looked closely at it, it's also proven that you shouldn't.
- rjurney 17y ago
  Exactly. The tomatoes out of my non-organic plot taste identical to the ones out of my organic plot - and both beat store bought by a mile.
antonovka 17y ago
In addition to the organic vs. non-organic, it's also a question ingredients: - Organic vegetables aren't chemically ripened, non-organic vegetables usually are. - Organic snacks use sugar or cane juice, most non-organic snacks use corn syrup. - Organic snacks use non-hydrogenated oils and real butter. Quite a few non-organic snacks use partially hydrogenated oils. There's nothing that says corn syrup can't be organic, but 'organic' foods almost invariably use better, alternative, and often more expensive ingredients. Given this, I don't think anyone would have difficulty identifying the foods.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  Organic vegetables aren't chemically ripened ALL vegetables without exception ripen because of chemical reactions. I presume you mean that the chemicals that cause ripening in some vegetables weren't put in the vegetables by human agency, but that may not make a difference if they are the same chemicals in either case. Organic snacks use sugar or cane juice, most non-organic snacks use corn syrup What is the evidence that this difference has any significance for human health or any other important issue?
  - antonovka 17y ago
    ALL vegetables without exception ripen because of chemical reactions. I presume you mean that the chemicals that cause ripening in some vegetables weren't put in the vegetables by human agency, but that may not make a difference if they are the same chemicals in either case. Your point is uselessly pedantic. Most conventional tomatoes are picked from the vine early and are then ripened through the application of ethylene. This produces a less flavorful tomato. And yes, I'm also aware that arsenic is "all natural". What is the evidence that this difference has any significance for human health or any other important issue? Sugar is less sweet, and foods made with it tend to have a more balanced taste. This is something I consider to be an important issue when it comes to food. My opinion is of course subjective, though popular. The fact is that corn syrup was never added for the flavor. It was substituted for sugar because it's cheaper than sugar.
randallsquared 17y ago
Indeed. I'm not sure I've ever noticed organic produce tasting better, overall. It certainly does look worse, which may be influencing how I feel about it. As my own main food preparer, though, the main issue I have with organic is that it's less convenient. It takes me about the same time to chop up an onion or tomato no matter if it has a four inch diameter (non-organic, from Walmart) or a two inch diameter (from the organic bin at Shoppers Food or where ever), but I have to use a lot more of the organic ones to get the same amount of veggie. Also, organic veggies are far more often misshapen or have bad spots that have to be cut out, which I assume is because tomatoes that aren't being speed-ripen have more time for spots to go bad. All in all, I'll keep buying food that looks good over food that might taste a little better (assuming I'm just unobservant).

I would be willing to bet that in a double-blinded study the difference would be a lot less clear cut then you propose.

by amelim 17y ago

I would be willing to bet that in a double-blinded study the difference would be a lot less clear cut then you propose.

To be fair, I think you'd have to distinguish between Industrial Organic and true farmers-market / moms-backyard organic. You give somebody a tomato, an apple, a pear from Kroger or Safeway or Publix, and another from an organic farmers market... I'd be just as willing as you to bet on that random consumer selecting the organic produce.

amelim 17y ago
So you want to compare a piece of produce that has probably traveled for several days and sat around waiting to be selected against one from a farmers market where it was probably picked the day or two before? It seems like you are arguing against distribution methods, not organic/non-organic.
- encoderer 17y ago
  The trouble is that there often isn't a choice of "non-industrial non-organic." The 2 farmers markets in my area are stocked full of organic produce. Probably because a farmer can sell it for a few dollars more to people just like me if he produces organic. And you can't separate the distribution method from its production method. They're part and parcel of each other. I would much rather buy locally-grown, non-organic produce than organic produce grown in an industrial operation a thousand miles away.
  - azanar 17y ago
    I would much rather buy locally-grown, non-organic produce than organic produce grown in an industrial operation a thousand miles away. Why? Outside of the arguments of freshness, which could be dealt with by a more efficient distribution mechanism, I don't see any net benefit. I'll admit that the argument toward supporting local farmers carries little weight with me. Outside of the freshness argument, it strikes me as little more than small-town sentimentalism. There are a number of other industries where we did far better when we dispatched that argument; I'm not yet convinced that food production is any different. I can imagine all sorts of economies of scale that could be exploited, but we have to let the economy scale first.
    - encoderer 17y ago
      The trouble is that food production is more organism than industry. And most of our obesity problems in this country, and a great deal of greenhouse gas effects, derive from ignorance of that fact. The American industrial food chain consumes more oil than American automobiles. The industrial food chain enforces a farm mono culture where a plot of land sees only one crop, year on year, for decades. Or maybe two: Maybe soybeans get thrown in the mix. Local polyculture farms raise animals and a number of different crops in a little dance that mimics the natural cycle of life. Cows eat grass, and they and horses are the only animals that can. Birds clean up after the cows. What's left when the birds are done grows more grass. Goto 1. The industrial farm leaves over-tilled dead soil in desperate need of artificial fertility, and ridding these farms of animals leaves them all on gigantic feed lots with manure ponds. If you don't see the problems with this, you've buried your head in the sand. And that doesn't even touch the surface of the massive amount of fossil fuel we use to truck produce and meat 2000+ miles to a supermarket that itself is filled with thousands up thousands of food-like substances. Huge agribusiness has proven you can indeed industrialize food. And to anybody that's ever looked closely at it, it's also proven that you shouldn't.
rjurney 17y ago
Exactly. The tomatoes out of my non-organic plot taste identical to the ones out of my organic plot - and both beat store bought by a mile.

antonovka 17y ago

In addition to the organic vs. non-organic, it's also a question ingredients: - Organic vegetables aren't chemically ripened, non-organic vegetables usually are. - Organic snacks use sugar or cane juice, most non-organic snacks use corn syrup. - Organic snacks use non-hydrogenated oils and real butter. Quite a few non-organic snacks use partially hydrogenated oils. There's nothing that says corn syrup can't be organic, but 'organic' foods almost invariably use better, alternative, and often more expensive ingredients. Given this, I don't think anyone would have difficulty identifying the foods.

tokenadult 17y ago
Organic vegetables aren't chemically ripened ALL vegetables without exception ripen because of chemical reactions. I presume you mean that the chemicals that cause ripening in some vegetables weren't put in the vegetables by human agency, but that may not make a difference if they are the same chemicals in either case. Organic snacks use sugar or cane juice, most non-organic snacks use corn syrup What is the evidence that this difference has any significance for human health or any other important issue?
- antonovka 17y ago
  ALL vegetables without exception ripen because of chemical reactions. I presume you mean that the chemicals that cause ripening in some vegetables weren't put in the vegetables by human agency, but that may not make a difference if they are the same chemicals in either case. Your point is uselessly pedantic. Most conventional tomatoes are picked from the vine early and are then ripened through the application of ethylene. This produces a less flavorful tomato. And yes, I'm also aware that arsenic is "all natural". What is the evidence that this difference has any significance for human health or any other important issue? Sugar is less sweet, and foods made with it tend to have a more balanced taste. This is something I consider to be an important issue when it comes to food. My opinion is of course subjective, though popular. The fact is that corn syrup was never added for the flavor. It was substituted for sugar because it's cheaper than sugar.

randallsquared 17y ago

Indeed. I'm not sure I've ever noticed organic produce tasting better, overall. It certainly does look worse, which may be influencing how I feel about it. As my own main food preparer, though, the main issue I have with organic is that it's less convenient. It takes me about the same time to chop up an onion or tomato no matter if it has a four inch diameter (non-organic, from Walmart) or a two inch diameter (from the organic bin at Shoppers Food or where ever), but I have to use a lot more of the organic ones to get the same amount of veggie. Also, organic veggies are far more often misshapen or have bad spots that have to be cut out, which I assume is because tomatoes that aren't being speed-ripen have more time for spots to go bad. All in all, I'll keep buying food that looks good over food that might taste a little better (assuming I'm just unobservant).